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Lord Carter: But let us suppose that the official arrives in the middle of the afternoon milking session. That takes place between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Let us suppose that the farmer milks three times a day. That does happen. I consider the proposed hours to be sensible and acceptable. Evening milking is another matter. It is sometimes more flexible than morning milking because, then, one is waiting for the tanker to arrive. However, that is another matter. I consider Amendment No. 73 to be essential.

I turn to the other amendments. Amendment No. 77, for example, refers to sworn information, as does Amendment No. 76. I believe that that allows for justices of the peace to accept various situations when a person is operating on the farm.

In certain circumstances there are valid reasons for a farmer prohibiting entry to the farm. As to clarifying the situation, there are a number of principles involved. I agree with what has been said on Amendment No. 79 about leaving out lines 31 and 32. When one first reads them, they appear rather obscure.

As to Amendment No. 80, it is common sense that the warrant must be dated, otherwise many problems could arise. That is essential.

The Countess of Mar: I have a little difficulty with Amendment No 73 regarding the hours of 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. If an inspector called at our farm between nine and five on a Monday to Thursday, he would find no one there. I am here and my husband is teaching. If he called on a Friday that would be all right because I would be there. We should allow for more flexibility. There are many farmers, particularly small farmers such as my husband and myself, who need to earn their bread in other places. I hope that the noble Baroness will accept that in relation to her amendment.

I wait to hear what the Minister has to say on the other amendments.

Lord Jopling: If the noble Countess, Lady Mar, is going to be at her farm by nine o'clock tomorrow morning—Friday—she either will have a late-night drive or will have to get up very early in the morning in order to get there. That is a matter for her.

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I am a little bothered about this business of entry. Subsection (2) of proposed new Section 36G talks about subsection (1), the power that states:


    "An inspector or a constable may at all reasonable times enter any premises for the purpose of".

I am bothered by what follows, namely, that that will not apply,


    "to premises used only as a private dwelling-house unless 24 hours' notice of the intended entry is given to the occupier".

Can the Minister say what exactly is meant by "only as a private dwelling-House"? There are awful problems here. One can understand the basis of subsection (1) which talks about entering any premises. That is presumably what would be regarded as a farmhouse, a farm office or going into the buildings or fields where livestock are kept. But I do not understand why a farmhouse, which presumably is covered, should be treated differently from a domestic dwelling-house which may be attached to the farm.

Many farms have a bungalow attached to them where perhaps a farmer's son or a farmer's widowed mother lives. It is not classified as a farmhouse. Both—the son or the widowed mother—might do the books and keep all the accounts.

I do not see how one differentiates between premises in subsection (1) and private dwelling-houses in subsection (2). We really should know what is the definition of a private dwelling-house which is only used as a private dwelling-house. Does that mean someone living in a house which is private who has no connection with the farm except through being employed to look after the books and the farm office in premises separate to the farm? It is confusing. I do not understand why one has to make the difference. Therefore, I do not see why 24 hours' notice cannot be given in all circumstances covering both subsections (1) and (2).

It would be much more satisfactory to state that entry could be obtained between 9 a.m. and 5 p.m. on Monday to Friday, provided that 24 hours' notice had been given. I do not think that in any such cases, people would hide or destroy evidence if they were given 24 hours' notice or need the mystery call in which someone knocked on the door unexpected and demanded entry. Unless the Minister can explain it, I do not understand why it is necessary to mount unexpected raids on farm premises for those purposes.

Lord Whitty: On Amendment No. 73, I find it slightly ironic that we are discussing reasonable times at this hour of the night. The noble Countess says that what are reasonable times for one person are not necessarily so for others. A certain amount of judgment must be exercised by inspectors according to the premises and the normal pattern of work and living. The terms "reasonable times" and "reasonable hours" are used in much legislation—most notably, as an equivalent to this provision, in the Food Safety Act 1990. Such provision is appropriate here, and pinning down the hours to nine to five is too prescriptive and could in some circumstances be counter-productive.

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I do not fully follow the concern of the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, about why we should treat dwelling houses differently from other premises. It is reasonable that they should be treated with some greater respect. I think that what he is really objecting to is no-notice appearance anywhere. But almost all forms of inspector have some rights to turn up without notice. The main exception that we propose to that relates to premises that are used as dwelling space.

Amendment No. 74 is about evidence of authority. Indeed, all of the rest of the amendments concern how we enforce the power of entry. I have already said, but I repeat in response to this group of amendments, that I will consider how those provisions are expressed to see whether they can give less of an appearance of being draconian and demanding that everything be treated as an emergency.

However, some of the amendments are spurious. Amendment No. 74, for example, demands that constables or inspectors must show evidence. The regulations under which that procedure will be carried out already requires them to show evidence of their authority. Amendment No. 76 is, again, too restrictive. It would substantially change how warrants generally are dealt with, as well as limiting how we enforce this part of the Bill.

Amendment No. 77, which deals with representation, would also alter the general procedure for warrant provision. We must be careful, if we are using a procedure that is well known and understood, that we do not impose qualifications on it. For example, if people are worried about civil liberties issues in this respect, for the record, the report of the Joint Committee on Human Rights concluded that the procedure is fair. It is always possible for the person affected to take the matter direct to the High Court to seek an injunction to block a warrant. If we remove or place too great a restriction on the warrant procedure, we are effectively saying that the only way that it can be enforced is to go to the High Court in the first place. That would place too onerous a burden on the enforcers.

Amendment No. 80 relates to the signing of warrants. The regulations relating to warrants mean that a time-limited warrant must be signed if it is to have effect. It must also confirm an expiry date. That is already covered in the general provisions on warrants. Some versions have greater precision.

Some of the anxieties that lie behind the amendments are misplaced. However, I take the point that we ought, perhaps, to consider the powers of entry in toto, as I said.

11.45 p.m.

Baroness Byford: I am grateful to the Minister for that response and for his willingness to consider the amendments again.

With regard to Amendment No. 74, I do not understand why we need the phrase "if required" in the Bill. Anybody calling on one's property—be it the gas man, the water man or a policeman—will always be asked for some proof of identity. I cannot see why the

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words "if required" should be in; surely, it will happen automatically. I am intrigued by that issue, but it is a thought for another time; I am not particularly worried about it now.

I take the points made by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, about the timing of visits to farms. On some farms, it will be a job to find somebody in at any time. However, it is unreasonable to call in the middle of the night, as, unfortunately, happened during the outbreak of foot and mouth disease. I know that this part of the Bill does not relate to foot and mouth disease, but I hope that we will have a more robust discussion about such things in the autumn, when we cover that issue. The Bill gives powers of entry and grants warrants about which the ordinary member of the public, on whose land the inspectors are to impose themselves, has no form of recourse. There is nobody to stand up for the public. People will arrive on someone's doorstep, and there will be nobody there to defend that person. That is not right, and I am glad that the Minister is to consider Amendment No. 77.

With regard to Amendment No. 79, I know that the warrants must be dated. I will need to read Hansard, but I think that the Minister said that they would give the expiry date. I want to ensure that the warrant includes the date on which it was issued, not just the date on which it will run out. Perhaps I did not make that clear.

I am grateful to the Minister for accepting that the provisions in this Part may be too draconian—that is the right word. The Government have recognised that and will give the matter further thought. We are all anxious to encourage people to help eradicate scrapie. On the other hand, we must protect people's lifestyle. There is nothing more frightening than having someone call after dark, as happened to me the other night. They were not there for anything to do with scrapie. These days, people in the country hesitate to open their door after dark.

When the Minister is considering additions to the Bill, he should think again, in particular, about the section that suggests that 24 hours' notice be given. It seems sensible to give such notice, regardless of whether it is a visit to a dwelling-house or a general visit. As my noble friend the Duke of Montrose said, quite a few dwelling-houses are also used for businesses, and some of the outhouses are used for businesses and might be the office to which a person might wish to go. There are aspects of this part of the Bill that the Minister will need to consider. I am grateful to him for offering to do so. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 74 to 80 not moved.]


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