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Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I recognise all of the difficulties that my noble friend pointed out. There are indeed grave difficulties for legitimate business in this country if there is a great deal of smuggling. There are difficulties for those who obey the law—and they, after all, are the people we must, above all, seek to protect. However, we have a problem: our excise duties on tobacco and alcohol are very different from those in other European countries.
Lord Higgins: My Lords, following the recent High Court judgment, there still seems to be some confusion, despite the Minister's Answer, on this point. If it is true that individuals can bring back as much as they wish for their personal use, does that mean that the previous limits set by Customs and Excise or indicated by it no longer apply? More specifically, could the Minister clarify whether the onus of proof about whether something is for personal use is on the individual or Customs and Excise?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Higgins, is referring to the Hoverspeed judgment. Customs and Excise has appealed against that judgment. There are some matters outstanding on which it would not be possible for me to comment. However, although the Hoverspeed judgment questioned whether Customs was acting properly in terms of whether there was a reasonable suspicion to search anyone or to confiscate goods, it confirmed that it is illegal to bring back goods other than for personal use. It confirmed that it was acceptable for Customs to impose what is called an evidential burden on travellers that they should show. It confirmed that commercial imports—in other words, imports for sale or reimbursement—can be seized. Above all, it confirmed that there has been no breach by Customs and Excise of human rights.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, is it really right that the car should be impounded by Customs before a court has decided whether the goods have been brought in for personal use, not just on the ipse dixit of the Customs officer?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, Section 141 of the Customs and Excise Management Act 1979 specifically provides for the impounding of the vehicle
in which illegally imported goods are carried. Of course, it is open, within a month of the seizure, for the traveller to appeal. If the traveller challenges the judgment of the Customs officer, customs has to go before a magistrates' court to seek authority for that seizure. If it does not get it, the vehicle goes back.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I know about that but I asked the noble Lord—
Lord Newby: My Lords, I am sure the House will have much sympathy with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, said. However, will the Minister accept that it is absolutely impossible for Customs and Excise to deal with the problems to which the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, referred while excise duty differentials are so great? Therefore, the only two options available to government are either to accept that nothing can be done about the issue or to begin to look at a long-term strategy which might lead to lesser differentials on excise duties between this country and the rest of the EU.
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, I am not sure whether from his party's Front Bench the noble Lord, Lord Newby, is advocating tax harmonisation. When we last discussed the matter, the noble Lord, Lord Taverne, did specifically advocate tax harmonisation. That may be the view of his party, in which case I am most interested to learn that. It is simply not true that nothing can be done. When we introduced the most recent Customs rules, in the first full year—that is, 2000–01—we cut cross-Channel smuggling by 76 per cent. Efforts are continuing to reduce the amount of smuggling.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, is it not unreasonable to expect a Customs officer to make a quick judgment on the spur of the moment of the capacity, the appetite and, even more difficult, the length of life of a consumer or traveller?
Lord McIntosh of Haringey: My Lords, indications are available to Customs officers—sometimes from intelligence and sometimes from the appearance of the people who pass before them. The Hoverspeed judgment made it clear that there must be reasonable grounds for stopping and searching a person and for asking questions. That issue is still before the courts. I received a most pathetic letter from a gentleman who complained about his vehicle being seized. When I inquired, I discovered that, on the occasion it was seized, he had with him 20,000 cigarettes and 17 kilos of hand-rolling tobacco. I also discovered that he was making that journey every two weeks.
NHS: Doctors from Overseas
2.52 p.m.
Lord Campbell of Croy asked Her Majesty's Government:
- Whether they are encouraging doctors and surgeons from abroad to practise in the United Kingdom.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord Hunt of Kings Heath): My Lords, as part of our implementation of the NHS Plan, Her Majesty's Government are encouraging doctors to come to practise in the United Kingdom to increase the number of healthcare professionals working in the National Health Service.
Lord Campbell of Croy: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his reply. What are now the necessary qualifications in medicine, surgery and knowledge of the English language? Has the Minister seen the report—and is it correct—that recently arrived French and German medical teams have returned to their countries owing to misunderstandings, although their contributions and expertise were needed in this country?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, in order to practise in the UK, a doctor needs to be placed on the medical register by the GMC. With regard to a person with a primary medical qualification from outside the European economic area, the GMC is required by law to satisfy itself that that person has the necessary knowledge of English. EC law prevents the application of such a requirement to people qualifying in the EEA. But there is a responsibility on NHS employers to ensure that any person whom they appoint knows sufficient English to do the job properly.
Baroness Northover: My Lords, does the Minister agree that this is really the "sticking-plaster" policy for the NHS? Does he believe that scouring the world for doctors, who may be badly needed in their own countries or, if they are not, will cost us disproportionately, is the way to go? Would it not be better to invest in staff here, retaining the nurses who are leaving at the moment so that operating theatres can be kept open, investing in education and training, and tackling the overload on all staff, so that the NHS is better placed to keep their services?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, that seems to me to be an extraordinarily negative analysis of what we are doing in the NHS. There is a gap to be filled over the next few years because disastrous decisions were made by the previous government in relation to training places for doctors and nurses. We have taken decisive action to increase dramatically the number of such training places and have put in place recruitment and retention strategies. Those are beginning to pay off. However, in the meantime, it is surely right
actively to recruit doctors and nurses from countries which have a surplus of such professionals to come to help the National Health Service.
Baroness Finlay of Llandaff: My Lords, can the Minister say whether the Government are concerned that, under the EU directive concerning the mutual recognition of professional qualifications, a doctor could practise here for 16 weeks per year before being required to register with the General Medical Council, which is the point at which a previous problem with a doctor may come to light?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, the noble Baroness is right to draw attention to the draft directive proposed by the European Commission. The Government have concerns on a number of aspects of that directive. We are making representations in Europe and, of course, shall seek to ensure that, at all costs, patient safety is paramount.
Baroness Masham of Ilton: My Lords, if South African doctors who practise in this country want to have further training to become surgeons, do they experience problems and how long does it take them?
Lord Hunt of Kings Heath: My Lords, we certainly want to ensure that doctors who already practise here are eligible for help towards more specialist training. However, so far as concerns South African doctors in general, we have an ethical code. We do not actively recruit for the National Health Service nurses or other medical professionals from countries which need them for their own health services. However, of course some South African doctors practise in this country, as do doctors from other countries. Overall, through various schemes we are seeking both to recruit doctors to this country and to increase the number of medical and specialist training places in order to meet the targets set out in the NHS Plan. But we shall take a flexible approach in considering where improvements need to be made and in picking up the type of issue raised by the noble Baroness.
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