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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I wish to make two points. First, it is clear from the contributions of the noble Lord, Lord May, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford, which relate in part to my Amendment No. 197, that the use, wherever possible, of the word "reasonably" would improve the language of the Bill. If the Government wish also to include the word "proportionate" it would make the Bill a friendlier piece of legislation. The Minister should not merely inform us that the requirement of reasonableness is implicit; it needs to be spelt out.
Secondly, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, may want to comment on compensation. An important issue is the time of valuation, that is to say, whether it takes place just before vaccination, or at the beginning of the outbreak. This is a very important issue. We obviously welcome the fact that compensation at market value would be given, but it is important that the time at which valuation takes place is specified.
The Earl of Onslow: I have a question on which the Minister might wish to pray in aid the noble Lord, Lord May. She said that slaughter after the three-month limit might be slightly artificial. For how long does the vaccination last? If a disease is contracted, does it persist? I presume that those factors would affect the decision on whether a limit should be applied to slaughter policy.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I fear that the noble Lord, Lord May, indicated that he did not wish to speak again. Often, I have looked hopefully towards the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby, but I received no response from him either. It would be wiser for me to write on the subject of how long vaccination lasts.
I shall write to the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, about the timing and the process of determining the value—of which the Government are committed to paying 100 per cent—and I shall send copies of the letter to other noble Lords.
I am always nervous about answering at the Dispatch Box on a question to do with legal advice on whether laws depend implicitly or explicitly on the use of particular words. I understand the point that the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, makes. If the legal advice is that it would not present any problems, I undertake to look at whether we could come back to "reasonable" and "proportionate", but if there is going to be a battle between the noble Lord and the lawyers, I fear, speaking from the Dispatch Box, that I may fall slightly towards the lawyers.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: The noble Baroness has adopted a most accommodating bedside manner. She
has been very unprovoking and has given us no reason to complain on that account. However, I fear that in the content of her speech she has said very little to ease my anxieties. Throughout her remarks she has given no sign of her awareness of the feelings that underlie the amendment and that have been provoked by the clause. The noble Baroness looks puzzled. If she wishes me to expand on that I shall gladly do so.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I fear that I gave the noble Lord the wrong impression. I understand the strength of feeling and I shall read carefully everything that has been said. I appreciate that some very strong views have been expressed.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: That is some relief to me. I am obliged to the noble Baroness for her undertaking to read what has been said. I, too, shall read her speech with the utmost care to make sure that I have not missed some nugget that would cheer me up, but I fear that that is not the case. The noble Baroness started by saying that she was going to put the matter in context. To continue with my reference to her bedside manner, that was a good way of smoothing the sheets down so that the patient could be comfortable. However, it does not make me entirely at ease with what is left.
I, too, should like to put the matter in context. The noble Baroness has to accept that, even before the epidemic, the reputation of MAFF was not perfect. It did not enjoy a reputation of reliability, integrity and all the rest of it with the farming community. That was the start. The handling of the epidemic was far from immaculate. Even the Government have from time to time admitted that mistakes were made—and they certainly were.
Much has been made of the Anderson report, which called for a requirement that powers be clear and unambiguous. That does not mean that anything that is both clear and unambiguous is unobjectionable. There is no doubt that the clause is very clear and unambiguous, but that is not all that Anderson said. He did not say that anything that met the requirement of being clear and unambiguous would be all right by him—very far from it.
I remind the noble Baroness that the Bill and my amendment were drafted before the Anderson report was visible and long before the Royal Society report. The point that I wish to labour is that the feeling generated in the past is still there and very much alive. The subsection that I should like to delete says:
- "The Minister may cause to be slaughtered any animal to which this section applies".
I apologise for making one further point. I should like to be absolutely clear that the noble Baroness is not inhibited by any shortcomings of mine and fully realises the widespread depth of feeling about such provisions. I may have fallen short in my description of it. I hope that she will fully understand what she is really up against. Some gesture should be forthcoming from the Government at a later stage of the Bill.
I do not want to prolong my remarks, but I must apologise to the noble Baroness for the fact that in my zeal on my first amendment I omitted to mention Amendment No. 196, which is also in my name. Subsection (3)(b) contains the words,
- "which is otherwise required in connection with the slaughter".
4.15 p.m.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, for not having made clear that I had spoken to Amendment No. 196, as it was grouped with the others, although the noble Lord did not speak to it. If, as I fear, he finds my answers slightly short of satisfactory, I shall of course write to him on the subject and try to sort it out.
I accept the strength of feeling in the Committee on the issue of reasonableness. That is why I told the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, that if I am able to have due regard to that and to respond to the feeling of the Committee I shall do so. I shall take that issue away. I hope that the Committee will accept that I am making that statement in good faith.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 193:
- Page 2, line 32, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"
The noble Baroness said: I omitted in error to refer to Amendment No. 193 yesterday, but it deals with exactly the same subject. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 194:
- Page 2, line 32, after "slaughtered" insert "within three months of the date of vaccination"
The noble Baroness said: I should like to come back a little on the Minister's response, for which I am grateful. I am slightly surprised that her colleagues—if I may so call them—in the Box cannot answer the question. We have included a three-month time limit in the provision because, as I explained earlier, we feel that the commitment should not be open-ended. In
other words, without the amendment, the power could apply nine months or even one or two years after vaccination.Earlier, the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, spoke about the importance of breeding stock which is extremely valuable and takes years to build up. It would be undesirable if the threat of losing that stock were to hang over farmers for an unspecified period. Do the Government have plans to address that issue? If not, I should be grateful if the Minister would clear up the position and provide us with more guidance before we return to the issue on Report.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: I give that undertaking. I failed to deal with the point earlier not because the officials in the Box failed to supply an answer but because it arose while I was on my feet and I did not have time to consult. Had I known that the noble Baroness would return to the point, I would have consulted the Box while the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, was speaking. I shall of course take up the issue.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 195 to 198 not moved.]
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 199:
- Page 2, line 38, leave out from "under" to end of line 40 and insert "the powers given to the Minister in this Act, the Minister will pay 100 per cent compensation"
The noble Baroness said: I thank the Minister for her indication on the issue of compensation payment. However, it would help us enormously if we had more detail before Report. Although we dealt with the point yesterday, it is still very much up in the air. The Bill does not cover it.
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