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Baroness Byford: Will the Minister indicate how many amendments will not be taken if we accept the amendment currently under discussion?
Lord Whitty: It is not entirely a matter for me. The Deputy Chairman of Committees read out the amendments that could not be taken were this one to be passed. They are Amendments Nos. 213 to 222. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 213 to 222 not moved.]
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 223:
- Page 3, line 37, at end insert—
The Countess of Mar: Before the noble Baroness speaks to her amendment, surely we have worked out everything up to the end of line 37 in the Bill? Amendment No. 223 refers to line 37. Should we not be on Amendment No. 225, which refers to page 4, line 4? I am sorry to correct the Deputy Chairman of Committees.
Baroness Byford: I hope that I am technically correct in continuing because I am trying to make an insertion. With the increasing sophistication of testing methods and the fact that a great deal of livestock will probably be dealt with by on-farm testing, the chances for error other than human error will be greatly reduced.
It is a widely accepted rule that anyone who suffers due to negligence or mistake of another must receive adequate compensation. Even this formula would hardly cover in this case the value of the animals and the loss of production. The Government obviously believe that farmers have to be goaded into behaving in the way the state wishes. I am sure that the Minister does not really believe that, but that is the feel outside the Committee.
It appears that the Government wish to believe that their servants are always perfect and behave impeccably. I am sure that most of them try to do so, but the truth is that few farmers have to be goaded and a few state servants have to be restrained. That is why the amendment has been tabled. I beg to move.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: We wish to support the amendment. If animals are mistakenly slaughtered, which has occurred in the past, farmers should receive compensation to the level of 100 per cent of the full market value under the amendment's conditions.
Lord Whitty: While I appreciate that we have strayed into slaughter, vaccinations, and everything else in previous debates, this amendment relates specifically to slaughter. Clause 6 is about vaccination. Whatever the merits of the argument, the amendment is in the wrong place. I hope I need say no more to the noble Baroness for her to withdraw it and perhaps resubmit it in the right place.
Baroness Byford: I apologise to the Committee if it is in the wrong place, and particularly to the noble Countess; she was right and I am wrong. I will come back at another stage. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 224 and 225 not moved.]
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 226:
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 226 and the related amendments seek to make clear what an inspector is entitled to take on to the premises. They are needed in order to permit expressly an inspector to take any equipment he requires on to the premises. Although it may be presumed that an inspector may carry relevant equipment, there is in theory potential for dispute over whether an inspector can carry equipment into premises unless we specify in the Bill that he is entitled to do so. The amendments are for the avoidance of doubt. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before calling Amendment No. 227 I have to inform the Committee that if it is agreed to, I will not under the pre-emption rules be able to call Amendments Nos. 228 to 232.
[Amendments Nos. 227 and 228 not moved.]
Lord Peyton of Yeovil moved Amendment No. 229:
The noble Lord said: I must have stumbled into one of the "black holes of ministerial subjectivity" referred to by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Hereford. We have suddenly made a dash: we moved from Amendment No. 212A and the amendments grouped with Amendments Nos. 214 and 219 were missed out. I do not know quite how that happened, but when one is in a black hole of ministerial subjectivity, all sorts of terrible things can happen. I am not sure whether it is my fault, the Minister's or even that of my noble friend on the Front Bench.
However, I now have the pleasure of moving Amendment No. 229. Some of my amendments have erred on the side of optimism having regard to the Government's prejudice against reasonableness—I admit that—but this amendment is absolutely reasonable beyond any possible ministerial doubt. I can hope only that the Minister will not dream of allowing to continue on the statute book a clause such as the one we are now discussing whereby a representative of the Minister is entitled to ask for such help as he requires in entering premises. It stands to reason that he ought not be able to expect relief from someone who is quite incompetent to give it. I hope that the noble Lord will accept the amendment. I beg to move.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before proceeding further with the amendment, I should inform the Committee that if it is agreed to I shall not be able to call Amendments Nos. 230 to 232.
Lord Whitty: The only reason I am not prepared to accept the noble Lord's amendment—which is clearly based on the rather open-ended implications of the clause as it stands—is that the amendments to which the Deputy Chairman referred are my amendments and will do the job better. They restrict the kind of person from whom an inspector can require assistance to an owner or occupier, the person in charge of the stock or a person employed by the stockholder or the person in charge of the stock. That limits considerably the clause as it stands and builds in the fact that, because of the way they are employed, such people would be capable of rendering some assistance to an inspector. We believe that that is a better way of dealing with the matter than the method proposed in the noble Lord's amendment.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: I am so sorry. I had not been sufficiently optimistic as to read the noble Lord's amendments. Now that he has told me what they contain, I have the utmost pleasure in asking leave to withdraw the amendment.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: Before the noble Lord sits down, the Committee should consider one point. Of course one accepts what the Minister has said in relation to an owner and employees, but I know of a case which occurred during the previous outbreak of foot and mouth disease where the medical condition of a farmer meant that he was unable to assist in such a situation. As someone who has spent long hours toiling in the fields, I have back trouble, as do other people in the farming industry. Sometimes farmers are physically unable to assist, whether or not they would like to. This is perhaps without, in that sense, the description given by the Minister.
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: With the noble Lord's permission, I now beg leave to withdraw my amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 230:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Before calling Amendment No. 231, I should inform the Committee that if the amendment is agreed to I cannot call Amendment No. 232.
Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 231:
The noble Lord said: All the amendments that I had before me to deal with today have fallen. It is a relief to stand up for a moment and to at least participate in the discussion. I would have loved to have participated in some of the discussions which took place earlier, but we have now reached a stage of some repetition. I hope that all the points that have been made have been recognised and will be used. Certainly we shall come back to many of them when we get to Report stage.
This may seem a small amendment because it is a question of word adjustment—that is, to leave out "assistance as he reasonably needs" and to insert "personal assistance as is reasonably necessary". As the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said, there are times during an outbreak of foot and mouth disease when tensions are running high, when there are difficulties in the farming family itself, when there are difficulties between the farmer and the inspector or those who are coming in to take over and be responsible for the removal of stock and so on. We must remember the considerable stress and tension that exists among the farming families, the workers and so on, the minimum amount of labour and therefore the isolation that many suffer.
At such a time, most will not hesitate to co-operate with veterinary inspectors in handling the stock and the equipment that is so essential and necessary at times when speed is of the essence. As the Minister reminded us in the course of previous discussions, assistance and the speed of operation is important—but only as is reasonably necessary. It may seem trivial, but to the people concerned it is a matter of importance. I beg to move.
"( ) If animals are mistakenly slaughtered, the farmer shall receive compensation at a level of 100 per cent of the full market value immediately prior to slaughter plus interest from that day at base rate plus 5 per cent."
Page 4, line 5, at end insert—
"(b) such equipment as he thinks necessary."
Page 4, line 6, leave out from "land" to "for" in line 7 and insert "to give such assistance as he is capable of giving"
Page 4, line 6, after "premises" insert "who falls within subsection (9A)"
6.15 p.m.
Page 4, line 7, leave out "assistance as he reasonably needs" and insert "personal assistance as is reasonably necessary"
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