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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I concur with the noble Countess. This is a matter of great concern, and various points have been made during the debate. However, biological susceptibility to disease is a material fact that cannot be ignored.
Lord Whitty: The amendment would prevent the taking of samples from animals that were not susceptible to the disease. As matters stand, the Animal Health Act defines animals in terms of cattle, sheep, goats, swine, other ruminants, and, for a reason that escapes me, elephants. The same applies to this Bill. The Bill does not propose to extend that list, and any extension would be by order. Nothing in the clause extends that list. Nevertheless, it provides a framework for disease control, and non-susceptible animals could be found to carry either foot and mouth disease or another disease to which the legislation is extended. That does not appear to be the case as regards foot and mouth disease at the moment, but it is possible. We do not therefore wish to exclude the ability to test those animals—we are talking about testing rather than slaughter. I therefore think that the provision should remain.
Baroness Byford: I thank the Minister for his response. I have to say that I am no happier than I was with his response to Amendment No. 111 yesterday, about which I am sure he is not surprised. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 287 and 288 not moved.]
Lord Whitty moved Amendments Nos. 289 and 290:
- Page 6, line 34, after "premises" insert "who falls within subsection (4A)"
- Page 6, line 35, leave out "reasonably needs" and insert "may reasonably require"
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 291 not moved.]
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 292:
- Page 6, line 36, at end insert—
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 292A:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 293 to 295 not moved.]
Clause 8, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 296:
The noble Baroness said: With the leave of the Committee, I beg leave to move Amendment No. 296, in the name of my noble friend Lord Jopling, who, regrettably, cannot be with us. I thought that it was particularly relevant to move the amendment at this stage so that the Government could consider it more fully before we meet back again on Report.
My noble friend, in his amendment, asks the Government to insert a new clause requesting that the Minister lay before Parliament within six months of the Act coming into force an order setting out a code of conduct for those entering premises for the purpose of this Act.
We have had several debates about entry. We have reflected on the outbreak of foot and mouth disease in 2001. The noble Lord will appreciate that in some circumstances people felt coerced—perhaps arms were twisted and action may not have been taken in the
The purpose of the proposed new clause is to ensure that in future we have a code of conduct. I ask the Minister to accept the contents of the new clause.
Lord Whitty: I have already indicated my intention to table an amendment on Report to introduce a requirement to consult on and publish a disease-control protocol, which will cover the issues referred to by the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, in his amendment. The protocol will indicate the relevant factors that must be taken into account after taking specific decisions at farm level and will cover many of the matters we discussed. We have just published a draft of that protocol.
In addition, I intend to table an amendment requiring the Secretary of State to publish the reasons for the use of powers more broadly, which will probably deal with the other part of what the noble Baroness was saying.
Rather than accept this amendment, I should prefer to deal with the issue when I table an amendment on Report.
Baroness Byford: I thank the Minister for his response. We are very appreciative that the Government have listened to some of the arguments that were put forward in writing before we were able to move the amendment formally in this Chamber. The Government have given an important undertaking. The Minister mentioned that the Government have produced a draft protocol. Maybe it has not come my way, or perhaps I have seen it and mislaid it.
Lord Whitty: It has only just been published.
Baroness Byford: Then, no doubt, I will see it. The only issue the noble Lord did not address was the request of my noble friend Lord Jopling that the code of conduct should be laid within six months of the Act coming into force. Can the Minister guarantee that?
Baroness Byford: In that case, I know that my noble friend will thank the Minister and will be glad to hear his response. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 9 [Inspection of vehicles]:
[Amendment No. 297 not moved.]
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 298:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 11 [Deliberate infection of animals]:
[Amendment No. 299 not moved.]
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton moved Amendment No. 300:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 301:
The noble Baroness said: We have already tabled an amendment to add rabies to the list. In light of the report of a bat with low contagion infection at an animal sanctuary, this may be timely. By the nature of this legislation, anything else that may be added to the list will be very serious. It may well have implications for human health. As with foot and mouth, the way in which it is handled may be crucial to its speedy eradication.
It is to be hoped that no government would leave establishing a method of dealing with such a disease until it had been identified in the United Kingdom. It will rather be a case of watching a new bug emerge and deciding that it could present a threat at some time in the future. At that moment, the government in power should open the subject for debate and proceed as a result of an informed consensus by laying it before Parliament for debate. I beg to move.
Lord Carter: In my previous incarnation as Chief Whip I worked extremely hard on departments to make them realise that the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee in this House is very powerful and that its recommendations should always be followed if possible—and if not, that departments should have extremely good reasons for not following them. The obverse is that when the Committee has no objection to the powers taken in a Bill, be they affirmative or negative, it would be as well for this House to listen to the advice of that committee. I understand that the Delegated Powers Committee has no objection to the procedure that the Government have taken in the Bill.
Baroness Byford: I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Carter. Has the Delegated Powers Committee looked at the Bill recently, since all the new amendments were tabled? Circumstances have moved on. That might have a bearing. Is the noble Lord referring to the committee's original review of the Bill when it was first presented back in November?
Lord Carter: The committee will have considered the provision in the Bill that we now have. It would also have to comment on any order-making powers contained in amendments. This provision was in the
"(4A) The following persons fall within this subsection—
(a) the occupier of the premises;
(b) a person appearing to the inspector to have charge of animals on the premises;
(c) a person appearing to the inspector to be under the direction or control of a person mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)."
Page 6, line 38, at end insert—
"( ) If the inspector enters any premises by virtue of a warrant issued under section 62E he must at the time of entry—
(a) serve a copy of the warrant on the occupier of the premises, or (if the occupier is not on the premises),
(b) leave a copy of the warrant in a conspicuous place on the premises."
After Clause 8, insert the following new clause—
"CODE OF CONDUCT
The Minister shall lay before Parliament, within six months of this Act coming into force, an order setting out a code of conduct for those entering premises for the purpose of this Act."
Page 7, line 15, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"
Page 8, line 3, leave out "Minister" and insert "Secretary of State"
Page 8, leave out lines 4 to 6 and insert—
"( ) No statutory instrument containing an order under subsection (3) shall be made unless a draft of the order has been laid before Parliament and approved by a resolution of each House."
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