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Lord Whitty: I have some sympathy with the comments of the noble Countess, the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, and the noble Baroness. They said that we need centres of excellence for veterinary medicines, research, diagnostics and testing facilities. That certainly is the case. I am not entirely sure how the amendment would achieve that. The need for centres of excellence and research is spelt out clearly in the Royal Society report, which the Government will have to consider.
Some of the centres of excellence which deal with particular diseases—not only those discussed here but others as well—will probably have to be tackled on a European level rather than by setting up institutes for each one in this country. The unique designation of one disease to one institute may not be the appropriate pattern.
However, the amendment is linked to the list of diseases which relate primarily to deliberate infection. It is not necessarily the appropriate list of diseases for priority research work. I presume that the noble Lord is not suggesting that we devolve other functions from government as a whole to those institutions but simply the research and testing facilities. Therefore, while I have sympathy with what has been said, I do not believe that the amendment will achieve that. In our response to the Royal Society report, we shall clearly have to indicate what we are doing in relation to veterinary research.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I thank the Minister very much for his reply. Obviously the amendment provided an opportunity to make the point about the importance of fundamental research in our quest for the eradication and prevention of diseases.
I simply say to the Minister that, certainly in the past, Pirbright has held a pre-eminent position in tackling animal diseases on a world-wide basis. I believe that there is also a recognition of its reputation in Europe. I do not believe that recent governments have contributed to the decline at Pirbright. However, it still does excellent work, as it did during the outbreak of foot and mouth disease when testing was carried out under very great strain. I know that the staff work their hearts out there. However, had they had more resources, they could perhaps have anticipated matters a little more for the Government and perhaps could have tackled even more effectively the crisis of the recent outbreak.
I accept what the Minister says, but I am sure that he will not forget, particularly in relation to the Royal Society report, the importance of our small debate on this issue. In that spirit, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 11, as amended, agreed to.
Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 311:
- After Clause 11, insert the following new clause—
The noble Baroness said: This amendment concerns the officials, the system and the whole question of biosecurity. The Minister will know that, as the foot and mouth crisis ranged at its worst in 2001, we understood and appreciated the tremendous amount of work carried out by members of his department and by colleagues locally who had to face the problem at the sharp end.
Nevertheless, the Bill is aimed only at pointing the finger at the farmers. Nowhere in the Bill—the noble Lord will correct me if I am wrong—is there any check or balance on officials or on their responsibilities for biosecurity measures. The amendment seeks to attempt to raise the issue at this point in the Bill.
As I have already pointed out, the Bill assumes that farmers, occupiers, landowners and those who deal with animals are necessarily in the wrong and that they deserve severe punishment. However, in practice during the last foot and mouth outbreak, in some areas government officials—never mind many others who entered farms—stood charged of disobeying rules and, on some occasions, of lacking some of the niceties of social behaviour. As Members of the Committee will know, I referred earlier to cases where one or two farmers felt coerced and a little badgered into allowing access to be given or into allowing their animals to be culled.
I am glad that neither the Royal Society nor the Anderson reports blamed people directly for that behaviour or otherwise proved any or all of the allegations made at the time. But I believe the Minister will recognise that a strong feeling existed among farmers, even though, as the noble Lord may say, that may be unjustified. However, in some cases I believe that it was justified. I am quite convinced that there were faults and not just among the farming fraternity.
As the Bill stands there is no means of enforcing behaviour standards on government officials at either national or local levels. Indeed, there is no suggestion that there should be set behaviour standards. Doubtless that is because the Government do not consider that their staff need to be monitored. I hope that is not so. I am delighted to see the noble Lord shake his head. It is strange that in this important Bill, which will protect the health and welfare of animals, there is no guidance or direction to officials and those dealing with an outbreak. I beg to move.
Lord Greaves: I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, on raising this important issue. It is right that it should be discussed at Committee stage. I also congratulate her on the rational and restrained manner in which she spoke to the amendment. In many parts of the countryside there is still a great deal of anger at the way in which officials of MAFF and then DEFRA and people working on their behalf were seen to behave during the foot and mouth outbreak. I shall not go through that again as it has been well rehearsed in your Lordships' House and elsewhere. However, the bitterness and the anger—the legacy of the outbreak—remain. That is allied to what is widely seen as a lack of balance in the Bill which the Government still need to address.
Many people and farmers in the countryside do not object at all to the Government seeking ways of tackling any future outbreak of foot and mouth or any other similar disease in a more effective way than before. No one with any brains could dispute that the outbreak should be tackled in a better way than before, particularly in the early stages and in the extremely difficult circumstances at the height of the outbreak in places like Cumbria, where foot and mouth appeared to rage rampant and no one appeared to understand how to tackle it.
One reason why no one understood how to tackle the outbreak—different approaches were tried as time went on—is that no one knew how it was being spread. Even now that remains the case. There is a table in the Anderson report setting out how the virus was spread and 79 per cent of cases are still put down to unspecified local contacts. Rather optimistically in some cases it says that more than one agent was suspected. Another 9 per cent of cases are still under investigation. So for 88 per cent of cases people still do not know how the infection was spread. That is extraordinary and as a result everyone still has their own theories. However, it is quite clear that in the early stages of the disease, but also in later stages when it took hold in the Craven district in the Pennines and at one stage was advancing down the Ribble valley at a horrifying rate and came to within five miles of where I live, people did not know how it was being spread.
Not all the stories that one heard from farms about officials from the department and people working for them galumphing around the countryside in a way that did not accord with any sensible description of biosecurity can be wrong. Some of those stories of people going from one farm to the next and then on to further farms have to be believed. It is quite clear that a great many of those unspecified local contacts—79 per cent or perhaps more of the total—must have been a result of people and vehicles going from one farm to another.
It is quite likely that at least some of those were people working for the Government. Some of the things that I witnessed and stories from quite reliable witnesses about the way in which people went about their work—whether it was testing, killing or removing the carcasses—indicate that biosecurity is not the top
Therefore, I congratulate the noble Baroness on raising this issue. I am not sure how it ought to be dealt with. I am not sure that this amendment is the right way to deal with it, but certainly Clause 2 seems to refer to any person. We have talked recently in this Committee about the need to penalise people who are reckless in terms of activity that can spread the disease. However, the amendment extends it too far to accidental spread, whether from the men from the Ministry or other people going about their business or doing whatever, so I am not sure that this amendment is the right way. But it highlights the problem the Government still have with many people. There is a fundamental belief that they are not being balanced; that farmers, some of whom no doubt were to blame for what happened, generally were not to blame but are being blamed. It is believed that the Government are not prepared to apply the same standards to their own operations and staff that they apply to everyone else.
I hope that in dealing with future outbreaks that will not be the case. When we see the promised contingency plans and the plans for dealing with further outbreaks, I am sure that we shall have an opportunity to question the Government on this issue. They will tell us that it will not be the same next time, or that best practice from this latest outbreak—there was some very good practice in some places—will be applied everywhere. That is fine. But one still must convince the people out there on the farms that that is the case.
"OFFICIALS: BIOSECURITY
In the 1981 Act the following section is inserted after section 16—
"16A OFFICIALS: BIOSECURITY
(1) The Minister, or any persons acting on his behalf, shall take all reasonable precautions to ensure that he does nothing likely to cause an animal to be infected with a disease specified in Schedule 2A.
(2) Any person who fails to take such reasonable precautions is guilty of an offence, and shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum.""
9.45 p.m.
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