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Lord Filkin: My Lords, I would be less than honest if I did not indicate that the pilot has been sized of that order. We are looking for a pilot of about 3,000 places. What I have said about our minds being open on alternative sizes of accommodation centre leaves open the question of the number of such pilots that we will take forward. I hope that that is the reverse of inflexibility.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. The difficulty that we face is that the Government have decided that the trial will comprise four centres of 750, although as yet we do not know where the fourth site will be. We have had no guarantee today that smaller accommodation centres in different sites near urban areas will be trialled from now. The plans would have to be in train seriously in the Government's mind now and the budget would have to be allocated, as the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, the leader of the Liberal Democrats, pointed out.

At the moment there is no incentive on the face of the Bill to provide the Government with the opportunity to trial different types of accommodation centre, which we believe could more properly meet the needs of those living in them and those resident near them.

Because of the time that the debate has taken, I should not dare to try to repeat some of the wonderful speeches that have been made. Noble Lords have made clear throughout that their concern is to be humane. We have to exercise humanity alongside effective decision-making. If we lose humanity in this, we lose everything. I believe that I have a duty to test the opinion of the House.

6.18 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 12) shall be agreed to?

9 Oct 2002 : Column 316

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 171; Not-Contents, 107.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bhatia, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chan, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Coe, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craig of Radley, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Home, E.
Hooson, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Walton, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Pym, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stern, B.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Strange, B.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blease, L.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Durham, Bp.
Elder, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Laird, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warner, L.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

9 Oct 2002 : Column 318

6.30 p.m.

[Amendment No. 13 not moved.]

Clause 15 [Support for destitute asylum-seeker]:

[Amendment No. 14 not moved.]

Lord Dholakia moved Amendment No. 15:

Page 9, line 28, after "centre" insert "for a maximum period of four months, save in exceptional circumstances"

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I shall be brief. There are essentially two arguments in relation to the time limits that we are proposing. First, we seek to force the Government to make good their commitment to speed up the processing time. The Minister said that applications will, on average, take two months. However, those working in the various agencies have assured me that it currently takes much longer than two months to process applications.

Secondly, the centres are not a normal social setting. A lengthy stay in a centre is a poor preparation for settlement for those who will remain in the United Kingdom following a successful outcome to their application.

On Report in the other place, we tabled amendments to impose a strict time limit of six months for all asylum seekers. In that debate, the Home Secretary picked up a Liberal Democrat suggestion that, if the Government were minded to accept a six-month limit, to provide flexibility in special circumstances, provision should be made for a further stay of a maximum of 12 weeks.

Various issues have arisen which have led us to continue to press for an amendment to set a maximum time limit. The Bill currently does not specify a time limit, and references to "current" intentions provide little reassurance. Moreover, what is now Clause 23 deals only with families, and only with families with children under 18, rather than 17.

In introducing the then new Clause 23, the Government referred only to the "normal social setting" argument. The noble Lord, Lord Filkin, said:

"We have listened to the concerns expressed by organisations such as Save the Children and the Refugee Council about the length of time children may spend in accommodation centres. We recognise that a few months may seem much longer in the lives of younger children. We can also see the need to consider whether what one might call a more normal social setting outside an accommodation centre would be appropriate for children at a particular stage having regard to their development needs".—[Official Report, 10/07/02; col.748.]

On Report in the other place, however, the processing time argument featured—

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