| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Lord Filkin: My Lords, my understanding is that all of the substantial government amendments were tabled yesterday. I will double check that. What I was reading out in terms of my speaking note was the process for retabling them because they have gone through a different process of being recommitted. I am advised that they are in the Marshalled List.
Lord Tebbit: My Lords, could the practice of turning questions from Ministers to the Clerks in order to obtain accurate answers be more widely practised?
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I think that is excellent advice.
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Bill
3.41 p.m.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, I beg to move that the Bill be now further considered on Report.
Moved, That the Bill be further considered on Report.—(Lord Filkin.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 28:
- Page 16, line 26, at end insert "including the duty to monitor the legal rights of residents and the laws regarding child protection"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 28, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 29, 30 and 32.
In Committee, I welcomed the amendments tabled by the Government to set up advisory groups and a monitor. They introduce a limited form of accountability for the running of accommodation centres, which was certainly welcome.
However, I did say that I was concerned that this system of oversight might lack some teeth and that I would consult the expert bodies and consider whether we should do some more probing on the Government's intentions on Report. These amendments have been tabled to reflect some of the concerns expressed to me by organisations such as the UNHCR, the Refugee Children's Consortium and the Immigration Advisory Service over the summer.
I was pleased to hear the Minister yesterday on Report make a clear commitment that there will be a child protection policy in place in the accommodation centres. It was important to have that so clearly on the record. We need to have a clear indication of what the role of the advisory groups will be and what their remit will be in monitoring items such as the child protection policy. Will the advisory groups be able to monitor the
legal rights of residents of the accommodation centres? If not, why not? Will they be able to monitor the effectiveness of the child protection rights?Will the monitor also be able to report on the effectiveness of the Criminal Records Bureau checks carried out on staff who work at the accommodation centres, either directly employed or on a voluntary basis? Noble Lords will recall that yesterday we debated an amendment, which unfortunately I lost on a vote, which would have put in place enhanced protection for children in accommodation centres. Now we look at the issue of Criminal Records Bureau checks. Will all the staff be covered by those checks and what level of checks will they be, basic or enhanced? All these amendments are designed to protect those who are living and working in the accommodation centres. I beg to move.
Lord Renton: My Lords, I rise to support these amendments. One question arises out of them, and I may not be in order asking it, but it is so relevant that I dare to put it to the Minister. It seems to me that, bearing in mind the legal problems that are likely to arise, and which will be part of the decisions of the members of the advisory groups, the chairman of each advisory group should be an experienced lawyer. If the Government have that in mind, at the Third Reading an amendment should be tabled in order to ensure it.
Lord Dholakia: My Lords, these amendments have our support on this side of the House. We certainly support the duties placed on members of the advisory groups. The second amendment gives the Secretary of State power to make provisions for the training of members of advisory groups and the third amendment would mean that a requirement to undergo training could be a condition for the person being appointed.
These amendments are in line with similar provisions which have been made for members of various groups working in such situations. I refer here to lay members of the prison boards of visitors and lay members who inspect detention centres. The need for training is a crucial element. It is crucial in this instance because the advisory group members will be looking at whether the rights of individuals are protected. It is important that people are not simply appointed to pay a visit and make a report. They should learn about what are the rights and what is being done to protect them, and what the government and the monitor are doing about them. If they have any doubts whatever, they should bring them to the attention of the appropriate authorities.
The amendment imposes duties on members of the advisory groups, but these are duties they must carry out to fulfil their function. If the Minister contends that they will be lay persons not lawyers, the response is that the lay people are capable of understanding the law. The visitors groups for detention centres have proved it. If the advisory groups do not have a grasp of the legal rights of those in the centres, they are unlikely to be able to know what to look for when they visit a centre and are unlikely to be able to make useful reports. This is not only for the protection of those
who are in such centres, it is as much for the protection of those who provide a service and for ensuring that accommodation centres are run with no-one's basic rights being impinged upon.
Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, is there anything in the amendment which could not be included in regulations? A great deal of common sense has been uttered from both Opposition Benches but I do not think anything is precluded in practice as regards what has been suggested. In other words, does it have to be in primary legislation?
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, I should probably have traced the answer through the Bill, but I have not been able to do so in the time available, so can the noble Lord tell us whether these regulations will come to the House by a negative resolution or an affirmative one? This clause was introduced at the Committee stage in this House. It has not therefore been examined by the committee which looks at the powers given in secondary legislation on behalf the House. The questions that are being asked indicate that these regulations will be important and fundamental to the safety of people in the accommodation centres. It would be comforting to know that the regulations will come by affirmative resolution.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, some interesting and important points have been made on these amendments. I will start by making a few general remarks about how we see the role of advisory groups and therefore to what extent we feel they can address the issues raised. I will then speak about other ways in which we believe those issues will be properly addressed in the overall process of control and monitoring.
It is useful to look at what Sir Peter Lloyd, who chaired the review of prison boards of visitors, has said. Clearly accommodation centres are not prisons, but the principles of the prison boards of visitors in terms of having people going in there and trying to be ears and eyes, looking from the perspective of people who are in those places, is the foundation principle.
The report said that the boards of visitors should be concerned with,
- "simply what all that is actually meaning to individual prisoners in their experience of prison and their preparation for release".
The advisory groups will be listening to the concerns and complaints of individual residents and, more broadly, looking at the effects of the operation of the centres on residents as a whole. It is precisely the commonsense lay perspective that we need to provide reassurance as to the treatment of centre residents.
The advisory groups should be looking at the way the centres operate and the effects on individuals within them, and hearing what those individuals say about it, which may or may not be the totality of the
truth. They are not there necessarily to make a firm and final judgment, but to convey feelings and concerns.We want to recruit a wide variety of people as advisory group members. Placing a duty on them simply to focus on legal skills—although that clearly would not be ruled out—would be turning them away from the kind of role that we consider appropriate. It would require a considerable level of expertise in the law for them to be able to do the job of identifying whether, for example, the Legal Services Commission was effectively discharging its functions within an accommodation centre by the provision of legal aid.
However, quite clearly the advisory groups could and should relay concerns if they pick up from residents of accommodation centres that they feel they are not getting adequate legal advice; that they are not getting access to lawyers when they want them; that they are not getting the help and helpfulness they expect from an advocate on important issues. That kind of issue would be four-square within the remit of the advisory groups, which again is consistent with the perspective I have sought to give overall.
Similarly with child protection policies—I shall turn later to the other ways in which we shall seek to ensure the effectiveness of the child protection policies—the advisory groups would be commonsense eyes and ears. They would not quite befriend but would be available to people living in accommodation centres so that any concerns could be relayed to them.
The amendment in regard to the monitor is divided into two parts. I recognise that there are other points to which I must return, but the first part of the amendment would require the monitor to report on the effectiveness of the checks carried out on staff employed at the centres by the Criminal Records Bureau. I understand that the intention behind the amendment is to see whether the employers' checks are effective in precluding unsuitable people from working in accommodation centres. As the House knows, part of the problem with the checks is that if they are carried out well they should be able to pick up people who have records; but we know only too well that they cannot pick up the records of people who have not committed or been convicted of offences. Therefore none of us can feel that the checks are a complete answer.
However, the contractual requirements of the people running the accommodation centres will be such that the Home Office will approve every appointment to the accommodation centres if it is satisfied that the necessary checks have been carried out. The Home Office itself will have a fairly strong control process in that respect.
I can respond much more positively to the second part of the amendment, which requires the monitor to report on the effectiveness of the child protection policy operated by the centres. We intend the contract to specify that each centre must have a child protection policy in line with the local area child protection committee's policy. Although Home Office staff will
monitor the actual operation of the contract, I agree that assessing the overall appropriateness and suitability of the child protection policy is something that could usefully be done by the monitor.However, as my noble friend Lord Clinton-Davis said, I do not believe that this needs to be specified in the Bill. Clause 32(2)(c) already requires the monitor to consider the treatment of residents and, in subsection (3), to consult such other persons as he considers appropriate. In this way the monitor can consider the child protection policy in the context of the way residents are treated. He or she would no doubt wish to consider consulting the local authority and local area child protection committee to consider the nature of the accommodation centre's child protection policy in the light, for example, of the guidelines produced. We shall of course make the monitor's terms of reference available in due course.
For the reasons I gave earlier, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Renton, will understand that while not for a second should a legally qualified chairman be ruled out, the function is not essentially a legal one. However, clearly a lawyer could be so appointed.
As to the levels of checks, I indicated that we would seek to ensure that the highest levels of checks that could be carried out on the relevant levels of staff would be. In short, that means an enhanced disclosure for those regularly engaged in caring, training, supervising or being in sole charge of children; a standard disclosure for those whose duties involve working with children at a lesser level—for example, administrative staff and staff working in the education facility—but who would have contact with children; and a basic disclosure for other staff—for example, cleaners, maintenance workers and administrative staff.
Under Clause 36(4), the regulations in regard to the advisory group will be subject to the negative procedure. I hope that I have now covered all the points raised.
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page