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Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Baroness refers to all the children's adoption societies. Does she
not accept that if the Bill remains unchanged, the work of the religious-based adoption societies will become unlawful?
Baroness Gould of Potternewton: My Lords, I am sorry that I cannot respond to that point. However, if it does become unlawful, we have a responsibility to ensure that we change the law to make it lawful. I do not believe that one adoption organisation should prevent children from having a stable, loving and caring home. We have the opportunity today to increase the number of vulnerable children who do have that opportunity, but we will lose that opportunity if we support these amendments.
The choice for me is simple: is it not better and right that a child should have constancy and security and the opportunity of a real home than remain in care? The amendments before us will ensure the second option. I am not prepared to accept that and I hope that House will not either.
The Lord Bishop of Chelmsford: My Lords, there is a deep unease among many people in the public domain about the possibility that cohabiting, and especially same-sex, couples might be granted the legal right to adopt a child. Like many noble Lords, I have had more letters about this issue than any other, including hunting!
The Judaeo-Christian ethic clearly emphasises that it is within the context of the committed heterosexual relationship of marriage that the paramount interests of the child are best served. All of us emphasise that it is the children who must be our paramount concern and that has emerged repeatedly throughout the debate. Children are not pawns or trophies. They need and deserve to be cared for and nurtured ideally within a home environment in which the complementarity of the sexes is expressed by a male and female parent.
Having children is one of the three purposes of marriage, universally recognised by all the Christian Churches. The intention is for parents to be as committed to the nurture of their children as they are committed to each other as husband and wife. The "pick and mix" family, now so often advocated, where any configuration of adults will do, is a clear rejection of the very Judaeo-Christian beliefs which pioneered adoption and fostering in the United Kingdom.
I have had long experience of adoption issues. An adopted child has inevitably an inbuilt vulnerability and not infrequently struggles at different points in his or her development with the deeply human questions of identity and belonging. To be adopted into a situation where the couple are not rooted in a commitment to each other, or are both of the same sex, creates all the potential for the child to be even more confused and insecure. It is with that so clearly in my view that I will be supporting the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Howe.
Earl Russell: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain, will not misunderstand me if I join her in deeply regretting that we will not have the opportunity to hear Lady Young today. Lady Young was a
parliamentarian to her fingertips. She was as devoted to the procedures by which we reach our decision as she was to her own principles. And that is saying something.I want to put two questions to the noble Baroness, Lady O'Cathain. First, will she concede that those of us who oppose the amendments today are quite as devoted to the interests of children as those who propose them? We merely see the interests of children in very different waysin many more different ways than time will allow me to expound today.
Secondly, will she concede that as regards Members on these Benches and, as far as I know, everyone else, this is nothing to do with political correctness or social engineering. Those are things I despise. People, not the state, are generally the best judges of their own interests. That is a fundamental principle behind the philosophy of these Benches. Were I not convinced on those grounds, I would not be saying what I am saying now.
Parliamentary measures tend to get shorthand nicknames. There was a Bill that constantly occupied another place, in the 1580s, which became known as the Bill Against Wednesdays. I know that today is a Wednesday, but I have nothing against that. However, these amendments should be known as the amendments against couples. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, explained very clearly, it is perfectly legal for a single homosexual to adopt or for a single member of a cohabiting couple to adopt, but not for the two of them to do it together. That can only cause confusion.
I remember, when I was about 10, being struck down by appendicitis. The doctors decided that it was necessary to operate that night. They flashed a message on the screen at the nearest cinemawhich, being in north Wales, was 40 miles awayto fetch the surgeon. The operation took place at midnight. I was assured the next morning that I would have been dead by then had the operation not been carried out. Medical people are rather careful about falling into legal traps. Had there been any doubt whether either of the people in charge of me was entitled to sign a medical consent form, I might not be addressing your Lordships now.
It is, I know, possible for the partner of an adoptive parent to apply for a parental responsibility order under Section 8 of the Children Act. However, that is a temporary order that may be withdrawn. Moreover, parental responsibility is governed by case law, which means that it is subject to change at any time. It is, I think, very much better to have two people in charge who are both clearly in a legal position of authority. Otherwise, we may find someone saying, "I'm sorry, darling, you know I cannot sign it, and Mummy is on the Front Bench". That is going to cause a good many problems.
I was interested in an article in this Sunday's Observer by Maureen Freely. She remarks:
I heard what the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Winchester had to say about the ecosystem. I think that the ecosystem was changing before the changes in the habit of cohabitation came in. I think that contraception changed sexual relations as permanently and as inevitably as nuclear weapons changed the nature of war. I think that there is no going back on that.
When I talk to my female pupils, I realise that there is nothing in the world harder to understand than the time just before the time when one was born. I simply cannot bring them to conceive of a world in which women have the sort of total economic dependence on a man that used to be normal even when I was young. This means that there must be an element of choice in marriage which was often not there before. It also means that there must be, as Maureen Freely remarks, a concern about quality. That is why I make no apology to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, for using anecdotal evidencebecause one cannot measure quality by quantitative evidence.
I entirely agree with what the noble Earl, Lord Howe, had to say about the virtue of permanence: it is very great. However, it is not the only virtue. According to John Chamberlainthe Matthew Parris of the 17th centuryJames I and his wife lived together "as well as a couple who do not converse can do". They gave their children permanence; it did not seem to do Charles I very much good. As well as permanence, we need love and we need peace; not only love for the child, but also the example of love between the parents. Where those things are absent, the child is losing something which is in my view quite as precious as permanence.
Many statistics have been produced by the noble Earl, Lord Howe. I think that the question between those who marry and those who cohabit is whether we think it better to have a bad marriage or none at all. That is a question on which there may be two opinions, but I do not see a research method of testing them. How is one to collect the sample of bad marriages on which to do one's research? Who is going to admit to belonging to it? I grant that people brought up in happy households are likely to do better than people brought up in unhappy households, but I do not understand how one brings that to bear on the evidence on whether the ceremony of marriage is in the interests of children.
The noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, alleged that there was no research at all on the effect on
children of homosexual couples. That is not in fact the case; there is a fairly considerable body of research. It was reported by Professor Gottman in 1999:
Being gay is not contagious. The fact that, by definition, all gay children are children of straight parents would seem to me to be evidence to support that point of view. In so far as there is trouble, it is the result of stigma. Those who complain of the effect of stigma and use it as an argument against change are showing the inability of the unanalytic mind to recognise its own handiwork. I except the noble Earl, Lord Howe, from thathe has not used that argument today; but others have. It seems to me that it is inevitably a disadvantage to have a type of loving relationship that one cannot avow proudly and in public. If one thinks that children brought up by homosexuals are at a disadvantage, the way to remedy it would be to allow their parents to avow their love proudly and in public.
We have had opinion polls quoted. I do not believe that I am the only person in this Chamber who was brought up on Burke's address to the electors of Bristol. He said that a Member is not a delegate but a representative and that he owes his constituents not only his attendance but his judgment. If that is true in another place, of which Burke was speaking, then a fortiori it must be true here.
Finally, children need to be brought up by somebody or something that can hear them. There are two cases, at least one of them fictional, of children brought up by wolves: Mowgli in The Jungle Book and Romulus in Rome. We are not proposing anything as shocking as that.
Lord Davies of Coity: My Lords, I rise to support the amendments from this side of the House. I do so in the knowledge that there are many on these Benches who will think that I am guilty of offending what is described as political correctness, a concept that I have never fully understood. I have always been driven by what I understand to be right and wrong.
I start by stressingas many other noble Lords have donethat my sole concern in the Bill is unequivocally the interests of the children who are the subject of our deliberations. My only interest in adults, whatever their status, concerns the way in which their circumstances will serve or not serve the interests of children who will benefit from adoption.
This Bill was primarily introduced by the Government for the purpose of removing obstacles and unnecessary difficulties that married couples confront when preparing to adopt. That bureaucracy and red tape have meant, unfortunately, that far too many children have been left in care homes when they could otherwise have been settled into a family environment which, as we all know, is most likely to be
to the children's ultimate benefit. However, what the Bill, when originally drafted, did not do was to extend the rights of those entitled to adopt. That right has been introduced by Back-Bench amendments in the other place, as we all know.It is significant that the Government, when introducing the Bill, saw fit to continue to apply the current provisions whereby adoption is largely, although not exclusively, limited to married couples. In the 1998 Green Paper on the family, the Government stated:
I stress that I have no quarrel with the principle of the other place carrying amendments as it has donethat is its democratic right. But I also believe that it is the democratic right of your Lordships' House to return the Bill in that respect to what the Government originally proposed, and that will be done by supporting the amendments we are discussing.
I am sure that we all appreciate that whatever we do there is always a risk to these children. Indeed, unfortunately, we read every day of the risk and danger faced by far too many children born naturally to married couples. But, as I see it, our job is to reduce, as far as is humanly possible, the extent of risk that the children with whom we are concerned are likely to be confrontedI refer to physical and psychological dangerand perhaps above all to ensure that when a child is taken from care he or she does not jump out of the frying pan into the fire. We may not always get it right but we can certainly do our best to limit as far as possible the extent of risk to be faced, not by us in this House, but by countless already deprived and underprivileged children. It is because of the degree of risk which I believe to be involved that I support the adoption provisions being limited in the main to married couples. I shall try to explain why.
First, I shall deal with the question of heterosexual partners who are unmarried but living together in what appear to be very stable relationships. Indeed, it will be observed that many such relationship are as stable, if not more stable, than many marriages. I have no doubt that that is true in some cases. However, what does the evidence tell us? The Office for National Statistics has found that cohabiting couples are six-and-a-half times more likely to split up after the birth of a child than are married couples. The study found that 52 per cent of cohabiting couples had split up five years after the birth of a child whereas only 8 per cent of married couples had done so. I refer to a six-and-a-half times greater risk factor as regards cohabiting couples. If that is the evidence concerning naturally born
children, what would be the level of risk for an adopted child in those circumstances? I suggest that it would be much higher. In my view that is a risk to which adopted children should not be subjected.The evidence from the Office for National Statistics convinces me that in the main those couples who demonstrate a commitment to each other through marriage are likely to have a much stronger commitment to an adopted child than would cohabiting, heterosexual couples. So why take the risk? If a couple are sufficiently committed to each other, they can marry and be entitled to adopt. But why should we risk the future of a child if such adults are not prepared to demonstrate such a commitment?
I earnestly and deeply believe in family life. Until my wife and I married 43 years ago, she worked as a trained nurse in children's care homes. Since we married, we have, fortunately, had four daughters, all of whom are married and were married before they had children. Each daughter has two children and therefore I have eight grandchildren. I observe at close hand how much my grandchildren benefit from a stable family environment. I have no doubt that marriage is the foundation for a stable family environment. I believe that an adopted child is entitled to no less than that and that that is what our laws should provide for.
From the evidence before us I know that it would be wrong to take unnecessary risks. It would be unwise and cruel to take the risk of placing already hurt and sometimes damaged children into circumstances where they are more likely to suffer even more hurt. Therefore, I shall vote for the amendments that remove that possibility.
I turn to the part of the Bill which makes it possible for homosexual and lesbian couples to adopt on an equal footing to married couples. From what I have said, your Lordships will know that I find such a provision wholly unacceptable. However, I wish to stress that this Bill is not, and should not be, about the rights of homosexuals and lesbians; it is exclusively about the interests of children born of men and women and who for one reason or another have been deprived of that family unit. It is our task to try to return them to a stable family unit. Many children in care homes, some from a very early age, will have become confused by their experience of the unfortunate circumstances they have had to face. It seems clear to me that placing those children with homosexual or lesbian couples can only add to their state of confusion.
Many others can quote chapter and verse, and have done so, on why the provision in the Bill should be removed. Therefore, I shall limit my comments to two aspects. First, I believe that the best possible environment for a child is with a father and a mother. I understand that there are 11 million married couples in Britain today. Of course, we cannot legislate for every child to live with a father and a mother, but where we can I believe that we should. We can do that in respect of adoption. A small child understands the concept of a "mummy" and a "daddy". In my view both the mother and father have important roles in
forming a child's development. Over the weekend I read an interview conducted with a homosexual couple in America, one of whom had fathered a child by artificial insemination with a surrogate mother. When one of the homosexual partners was asked what the child called him, he replied, "mummy-daddy". It seems to me clear that in such circumstances that child will grow up feeling very confused, particularly when among his or her friends or classmates.Secondlyit is perhaps a secondary issuethere is the question of sexual discrimination. If the Bill is not amended, there will be law in this country in the field of adoption which makes married couples and homosexual couples equal. Therefore, they should be treated equally under the law.
Let us imagine that a married couple and a homosexual couple make applications to adopt and that the married couple are given the child on the grounds that marriage is the best environment in which to bring up a child. Is not the homosexual couple entitled to claim that they have been sexually discriminated against? Such a situation may need to be tested. But should we not guard against the likelihood of a child being caught up in such a mess? We should support the amendment, which removes the entitlement of homosexuals and lesbians to adopt. By doing so, we should certainly avoid such a difficulty.
In conclusion, I was going to quote what the Home Secretary, Jack Straw, said on 4th November 1998. I support all that he said, and I believe that his comments support my argument. However, as those words have been quoted time and time again today, I shall not do so.
A noble Lord: My Lords
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