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The Earl of Listowel: I should like to address myself to Amendments Nos. 3C, 3D, and 5F; and, more generally, to the government amendment. This morning, my attention was drawn by Shelter to the possible consequences of the Minister's amendment. Shelter's concern is that the successes that have been wrought in the past three years by this Government as regards reducing the number of rough sleepers by two-thirds might be undermined if this amendment were implemented. Hence my interest in Amendments Nos. 3C, 3D, and 5F, which would help to ensure that no one is left destitute as a consequence of these provisions.
In early 1999, I met a young Somali man at a hostel for young, homeless 16 to 21 year-olds run by Centrepoint in Berwick Street, Soho. If I remember correctly, his village had been razed and his parents killed. He had subsequently lost contact with his brothers who were engaged in the fighting elsewhere. He escaped because he had been befriended by a westerner. He had passed through a port of entry on arrival in this country, but did not make his application at that point. I do not know why, because I did not ask him. He was befriended here by a Somali woman and lived with her for several months before that relationship and assistance came to an end. Prior to my seeing him, that young man had spent three weeks sleeping underneath an arch in Kings Cross, and was absolutely exhausted due to a long deficit of sleep. I saw him over several weeks.
My concern is that we may be putting more young people back into the situation in which that young Somali found himself. I appreciate and understand the Minister's concern that we should instil public confidence in the asylum application process, and that
we should process quickly such applications. However, in the pursuit of that end, the means employed should take account of the vulnerable.Through Centrepoint, I am also aware of the difficulties that some asylum seekers face in terms of bureaucracy. The Minister listed many proposed safeguards, but, in practice, I am concerned that they may not be as effective as we would hope. Therefore, when he responds, perhaps the Minister would be good enough to address that concern. Is the noble Lord aware that these measures might inadvertently give rise to an increase in the number of rough sleepers and homeless people?
In his introduction, the Minister said that two-thirds of applications are presently made in-country and that his intention is that that number should fall dramatically. However, if I am correct, I believe that currently about 40,000 people would be affected by the amendment. We must consider their well-being, especially as at least half of them have gone through the asylum process and been accepted as refugees.
5.15 p.m.
Lord Corbett of Castle Vale: We need to remind ourselves of the purpose of the Bill, and the thinking behind it. We all have a responsibility—and this applies also to the other place—to win wider public support for our duty properly to consider claims for asylum. Part of that means that all reasonable steps must be taken to minimise fraud and abuse of the system. I believe that the public expect that; indeed, it is almost part of a deal. I have some difficulty with the fears that noble Lords have expressed in this afternoon's debate.
The nub of my noble friend's amendment is that support can be refused where,
- "the Secretary of State is not satisfied that the claim was made as soon as reasonably practicable after the person's arrival in the United Kingdom".
Alternatively, if someone, for whatever reason, delays his application for a few days, he could subsequently walk into a police station to ask where he should go in order to make a claim for asylum. I do not doubt that that person would be given a cup of tea and asked to sit down while the Immigration and Nationality Directorate was contacted. In practice, I do not understand the origin of the fears that have
been expressed. Underlying those fears is the thought at the back of some noble Lords' minds that there is a whole raft of reasons why people delay making applications for asylum. I have genuine difficulty in that respect.We are talking about someone fleeing his country in certain circumstances, making the hideously difficult decision to leave his homeland and, in many cases, also his family. Why should there be any delay in making such an application? I can understand such a delay in the case of illness, and there could be other reasons. However, my noble friend's amendment does not say,
- "unless these applications are made at the port of entry, all benefits will be withdrawn",
- "the Secretary of State is not satisfied that the claim was made as soon as reasonably practicable",
Lord Hylton: I shall try to help the noble Lord, Lord Corbett. Let us suppose, for example, that a new arrival manages to get to this country by some means or another and is then lucky enough to receive hospitality from friends or relations. How is that person to know that he must claim immediately? In those circumstances, he will not have passed through induction or accommodation centres. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, rightly pointed out that such people can fall into a kind of limbo while their cases are being considered. Therefore, at the very least, it seems to me that there is a duty on the Government to publicise this obligation to claim immediately. However, I do not know by what means they should do so. I believe that there is a big information gap that needs to be considered in these circumstances.
Baroness Carnegy of Lour: I join my noble friend on the Front Bench in welcoming the amendment. The Government have a duty—not only to the people of this country who have been here always or for a long time but to people who have sought asylum recently and have been accepted—to reduce fraud. On the whole, the provisions work.
I am glad that the Minister gave us figures because they reminded the Committee—and if they are reiterated, will remind the public—of the extent of the big problem that the Government are trying to alleviate. Everyone in the Committee should assist them in that.
I am not sure why subsection (5) has to state that the Government must only act to the extent that it does not break existing law. Is that not taken for granted? I see that the Minister has the law by his side. Is subsection (5) just a belt-and-braces provision, so that the Government can say, "Of course that is not true. It is in subsection (5)"? Is that really required? We must be watchful that we do not put unnecessary legislation on the statute book. I ask that question as a non-lawyer because it struck me as important.
As to the relationship between committees in another place and this House, I am a little worried about the way that we debate the input of the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Earlier, members of the committee addressed us on the report, assuming that we had not read it—so there was a good deal of repetition. I was not sure that was necessary. The points were not made particularly concisely but in some detail. No doubt noble Lords felt that was important for the House but I wonder whether it was good practice.
My noble friend Lord Allen of Abbeydale raised a very legitimate point that others have made, about destitution. I too am worried about that. He mentioned papers that have gone to the Joint Committee but which it has not yet discussed. I thought that a report from a committee was quite different from papers that go to a committee and we should not really consider a report until it comes to us. I appreciate that members of the committee are abroad, so it cannot meet until after today. However, that matter is one that the House needs to consider. I am not criticising the noble Lord but there is a problem—as there is with the Joint Committee on delegated powers, on which I sit. Sometimes, the same issue arises. We need to clarify the relationship of committees to the House.
Amendment No. 3B addresses a genuine point relating to guidelines. The decision is hugely important from the asylum seeker's point of view. The phrase "as soon as reasonably practicable" is used a lot in legislation but does not really seem adequate. I look forward to the Minister's comments.
Lord Dubs: I apologise for not being present at the beginning of the debate. If my noble friend the Minister has covered this point, I am sure that he will put me right.
The phrase in the proposed new subsection 3(b)
- "the Secretary of State is not satisfied"
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