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The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his offering. That is about all I can say for it. I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have supported me, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Moran, for repeating what he said in Committee and for reminding us what the Commissioner thinks about the Bill and our activities. I am also grateful to the right reverend Prelate, who reminded us of the human aspects of the Bill, and to the noble Lord, Lord May, for promoting a balance in the Bill.

The noble Lord, Lord Carter, was somewhat disingenuous. I said that vaccination was not the whole answer. I accept that viruses—belonging, as they do, to Mother Nature—can change very quickly and that a vaccine might not be available for a particular strain of virus when it hits this country. So I accept that vaccination may not be the whole answer. My amendment does not propose that vaccination should be the whole answer. It merely seeks that the Secretary of State should give priority to vaccination.

The Minister appears to be under an illusion. I go on to state in my amendment:

"prior to causing to be slaughtered animals on premises where no infection has been detected".

That is very important. Obviously I accept that infected animals need to be killed and that animals on the same premises, which are very likely to have been in contact with infected animals but are not yet showing signs of disease, should be killed. I have no problem with that whatever. However, I do have a problem in accepting that animals which have had no contact with any other diseased animal and which are showing no signs of infection—and which, if they are vaccinated, will be of no danger whatever to any other animal—must be killed. That is all I am saying.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, does the noble Countess accept that Amendments Nos. 2 and 9 relate only to infected animals and that Amendment No. 1 would restrict anything beyond infected animals to the same premise? Does she accept that direct contact can take

22 Oct 2002 : Column 1238

place between animals which are kept at a premise different from the one in which the original disease was detected?

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I accept that also. But it is quite likely that such animals would be vaccinated. I understand that the vaccination takes only two or three days to work.

The noble Lord, Lord Carter, referred to the fact that tests to distinguish between an animal that has been infected and an animal that has been vaccinated have not yet been validated. These tests were validated quite a long time ago and deal with the RNA. I believe the noble Lord was referring to field diagnostic kits not being validated. There is a difference between the two. The field diagnostic kits are intended to cut down the time it takes to diagnose a sick animal.

I cannot accept the Minister's explanations. I must test the feeling of the House.

4.7 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 171; Not-Contents, 123.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blatch, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Boardman, L.
Boothroyd, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Flather, B.
Freyberg, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C. [Teller]
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Michie of Gallanach, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Moran, L. [Teller]
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Chan, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Haskins, L.
Hattersley, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Peston, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

22 Oct 2002 : Column 1240

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