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Lord Rooker: Yes, my Lords; that is naturally the case. I do not know what the response from the Bain inquiry would be. However, it would be much easier to produce a quicker report if all the evidence could be put before the inquiry; for example, evidence from the FBU. There is nothing to suggest that there is a shortage of resources, but we are talking about an independent inquiry consisting of people of good will who are taking evidence from all parties that they can possibly reach. As a result of these statements and other discussions, I simply hope that the FBU will see that it is in its interests to outline its case not to the megaphones of the media and to the tabloid newspapers but to Sir George Bain and his inquiry. The union should also suspend any idea of action until he has reported. That can be done quite legally. Indeed, the employers have said that they would be prepared to increase the mandate of the strike ballot.

Lord Waddington: My Lords, does the Minister agree that one of the changes made to employment law immediately after 1979 was the outlawing—the removal—of legal immunity for secondary action taken by groups of workers who are not involved in a dispute to bring pressure to bear on the employer who is involved? Is it not correct that the Government have done nothing to reverse that reform, and yet there are already threats by railmen and other workers to the effect that they may withdraw their labour ostensibly on safety grounds? Can the Minister give the House an assurance that the Government will support all those who combat secondary action of that kind, if necessary by invoking the law?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, we shall support all lawful processes. The noble Lord is quite right to say that we have not changed the issue about legal immunity. Trade union leaders do not own the safety of employees; safety representatives are crucial in that respect. The record of the trade union movement in improving industrial safety in this country is second to none. It is something for which it fought for years. Part of the reason for the start of the trade union movement was to secure better and safer working conditions for its members. However, the latter should not be used as a proxy in another dispute.

All this has come as a result of Royal Commissions, on which trade unions have been represented—for example, the Robbins Commission—and the work of the Health and Safety Commission and the Health and Safety Executive. The independent health and safety

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authorities are the relevant, lawful people who decide whether or not activities have to be suspended because of lack of safety cover. It is not a matter for trade union leaders to decide. If they do so without the advice of the health and safety authorities, quite clearly they may leave themselves liable.

Lord McCarthy: My Lords, I hope that the Government will not become involved in a debate in this House about the merits of the dispute. I do not like the idea of arguments across the Chamber about the merits of a particular case. As the person who actually invented the formula, I am especially concerned about this issue. It has been stated in newspaper reports that the Government consider that 40 per cent is too much. Can my noble friend the Minister tell the House where the Government got that conclusion from? That is partly what is queering the pitch. The Government have announced that 40 per cent is too much. It was not too much a few months ago when MPs were awarded a 40 per cent increase, but it is too much now. Why? This must mean that the Government now have some kind of norm in their mind. In the old days this was called having an incomes policy. Can my noble friend the Minister say what is a reasonable figure when you know in advance of an investigation and subsequent report that 40 per cent is too much?

Further, if I understand my noble friend correctly, he said that as a result of representations from the employers in this case the Government agreed to set up an independent inquiry. Is that also a movement in policy? Both this Government and the previous government have generally said over the past 20 years that they did not like inquiries, conciliation, or arbitration. And they got rid of the comparability commission. Moreover, we do not allow the Civil Service to go to the Civil Service Arbitration Tribunal. But now local government employers come along and, as a result, the Government establish the Bain inquiry, while repeating that 40 per cent is too much.

Does this mean that another employer, faced with an equally serious dispute, could demand such an inquiry? Indeed, the Government would find themselves in a very difficult position if, after Bain, they did not accede to such a request. And what the Government give to the employers they must surely give to the unions. Let us suppose that another union demands an independent inquiry chaired by Sir George Bain. What would the Government say in response? Are they changing their policy, or not changing their policy? I am not against them changing their policy, but they had better take this matter away and think about what they are doing: are they going for incomes policy, or for arbitration? I do not expect to receive an answer this afternoon. But they should reconsider these matters and make up their minds.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, with great respect to my noble friend, I should point out that he asked me not to get involved in the merits of the dispute. Therefore, I shall certainly not argue the case about which percentage is the right one. I recognise the analogy made with Members of the other place, but let us just

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think about it. The Top Salaries Review Body is an independent body to which MPs gave evidence on their case, but they did not, as it were, fix the results of the inquiry. The FBU should follow the line taken by MPs and give evidence to the independent body, make their case, and then await the outcome. That is the analogy that I draw between the two groups. We should not play off one against the other.

I should add that MPs actually deferred their pay increases for many years in the hope that others would follow their example. However, it did not work out quite as they expected.

Lord Prior: My Lords, the Minister may be glad to know that I shall not ask him as belligerent a question as was posed a short while ago from the other side of the House. Such disputes are extremely difficult and delicate. One has to be very careful what one says. But when otherwise reasonable and responsible people vote 9:1 in favour of strike action, one is bound to ask what is the underlying cause that leads people to adopt such a position.

Can the Minister outline the Government's view on what has caused reasonable people to vote in this manner? If they have not, as yet, found out anything in that respect, can the Minister confirm that the Government are making every effort to discover what lies behind the dispute? It must be much more than just a simple pay issue.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, in a way, I accept the thrust of the noble Lord's question when people vote 9:1 in favour of such action. I do not know the exact figures, but I believe I said that the total number of fire service personnel today is 47,000. The vast majority of those members will have joined the service since 1977 in the knowledge that there was a stable tried-and-tested formula for wage increases based on the outcome of the previous dispute. In fact, it was a formula that most trade unions would have given their hind teeth for in the past, even though it stymied free collective bargaining because it was actually a formula that gave the pay increase each year.

When, two years ago, the person who is now the general secretary of the FBU said that the formula had done a good job, that did not ring any warning bells to the effect that there was something wrong with the formula. In just two years out of 25, I do know what has caused Mr Gilchrist to move from saying that the formula had done a good job and given good salaries to saying now that it is an absolute travesty and needs burying. Clearly there is a problem here. But, given the fact that the general secretary made that comment just two years ago, it is not one that has festered over the years as some people might think.

Baroness Michie of Gallanach: My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has said anything yet about retained fire fighters. As he knows, they are part-time but very efficient and professional fire fighters who provide a tremendous service to the rural areas of this

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country, particularly in the highlands of Scotland. Retained fire fighters do not strike, but have they been invited to give evidence to the review body?

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I do not have specific details about that. However, the employers accepted that retained fire fighters' pay should be improved; in fact, one of the accepted claims was that their pay should be improved. As far as I know, Professor Bain and his colleagues are taking evidence from all the relevant parties who wish to provide it. I am sure that retained fire fighters will be invited to give evidence. I pay tribute to the service that they provide. They provide, almost by definition, an incredibly localised community service in our rural areas. We would not be able to fight fires in those areas without them.

Lord Merlyn-Rees: My Lords, I declare an interest. I was Home Secretary at the time of the previous dispute and—with Mr Terry Parry, of the Fire Brigades Union—played a part in settling it. I also played a small part in the TUC's development of a code of practice for dealing with safety matters. These two issues are still relevant. What has changed is that, whereas the previous dispute occurred in days of high inflation, we now have low inflation, which has a bearing on pay awards. Does my noble friend believe, as I still do, that the way forward is through the TUC code of practice?

The pay inquiry will not report until December. Meanwhile, inaccuracies about the dispute are reported daily, particularly in relation to the role of the Green Goddesses, written by people who have never seen a Green Goddess or thought about how they can be used. The Green Goddesses are kept at a storage base in the East Midlands. They are looked after carefully and have had limited use. There is not a snowball's chance in hell of their replacing the vehicles of the modern fire service. People who argue that, prove that they know nothing about the matter. We require a period of calm and quiet to settle this dispute, and I hope that we shall have that.

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