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Lord Rooker: My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend. I remember the role that he played in the acrimonious 1977 dispute, when I was just a humble Back Bencher in the other place. The fact is that the formula solved that dispute; it was the key. At the time, people always ask why a formula could not have been dreamt up seven or eight weeks earlier. We accept that the formula needs to be re-examined. The way to do that, however, is to sit down round the table. There is plenty of time to do that before going on strike.

Viscount Astor: My Lords, over the weekend, the Minister's colleague in another place, Mr Nick Raynsford, said that he thought that train operating companies would operate normally. However, surely that is a matter for the companies and for the Health and Safety Executive. Or will the Government be offering advice to the train operating companies? If the Health and Safety Executive tells the train operating companies that it is safe to run their services, but the

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companies are unable to obtain insurance cover because of the national strike, will the Government stand behind them in relation to cover, as they did for the airlines after September 11th last year?

Lord Rooker: As I said, my Lords, discussions on insurance are in progress. As I also said, however, it is up to employers, on the advice of the health and safety authorities, to decide whether it is safe to run the service they are providing. If they receive advice from the health and safety authorities that they can run their service, I cannot see why insurance cover should be an issue.

Lord Selkirk of Douglas: My Lords, does the Minister accept that the saving of life should be the paramount consideration in emergencies? Will the Government therefore consider making cutting equipment available to servicemen? The use of such equipment in car crashes, and even in coach and train crashes, can be a critical factor in saving lives.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, reverting to the original Statement, Mr Gilchrist was asked yesterday about the FBU's views in relation to life-threatening circumstances. He was also reminded of the TUC code—an aspect of the club to which all the trade unions have signed up. He said that he would discuss the matter with his executive and come back to the Government; I believe that my right honourable friend the Deputy Prime Minister said that the FBU would come back tomorrow. I accept the noble Lord's point that the saving of life is the paramount consideration.

Lord Christopher: My Lords, this is not a dispute that will be solved through textbooks. The noble Lord, Lord Prior, asked a fundamental question: why did more than 90 per cent of firemen vote to go on strike? I ask my noble friend the Minister to reflect on the fact that the 1977 formula—I shall, if I may, add a little to the history given by my noble friend Lord Merlyn-Rees—was not accepted by firemen; it was imposed on their leadership by the then TUC general council. I know that because I was there. We sent Terry Parry out to tell his massed ranks, who filled Great Russell Street, that the dispute had to be settled on the basis of that formula. I was not entirely surprised by that because, at the time, no one could see the value of the formula. Every general secretary has had a similar situation in his own union at some time.

In a few days, the dispute will have started, and the most difficult thing will be to persuade people to stop. Although I completely accept what my noble friend the Minister said about the Government not interfering, there are reports, which I believe are accurate, that firemen do not believe that. Reports of offers of 15 or 16 per cent have been bandied about, and they are either true or untrue. There are also stories about comments by a member of the Bain committee, and they are either true or untrue. I believe that the first task should be to endeavour to remove that misunderstanding. As the Minister said, it is a misunderstanding.

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I believe that it would be a great mistake for the Bain committee to hurry its report. The problems with the fire service go much deeper than the matter of pay. There are also problems with, for example, the fire service pay structure. The fire brigades compare their pay structures with those for the police. The formula broke down because of advances made by those without a formula. Bain needs to have enough time to address all of those issues.

If I am correct about that, and if we are to reach a settlement, will the Minister just consider a way of reaching an interim offer and giving some assurances about the intent of the Bain committee? If we return to some of the thinking I have heard expressed today, we shall be returning almost to 1926. References to the law will not help one jot. This is the most heavily supported dispute for a very long time and it needs to be dealt with in a manner likely to produce a settlement. I believe that that will be possible only with an interim settlement which entails waiting for Bain.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I accept my noble friend's warning about the law. However, I think that I have answered the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Waddington, to the best of my ability. I do not think that it was a provocative question. The Government have not sought to change the law in respect of immunity for secondary action. I think that that is a straightforward position. As for the other points, however, surely the way of getting answers about what might have been offered on a given day or in various meetings is for the parties to give evidence to the inquiry. Let the independent inquiry decide who said what and the root issues in fire service pay. People have accepted that the formula needs changing but the fact of the matter is that the formula—

Lord Christopher: My Lords, the firefighters do not believe it is independent.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, I was about to say to my noble friend that I believe that the formula is based on the higher quartile of top manual industrial earnings. It is not a question of people who are not a party to the formula getting ahead; the industrial structure of this country today is not even remotely like that of 1977. One can therefore appreciate that the formula needs to be reviewed; that point has been conceded. The best body to decide that is the inquiry.

Animal Health Bill

5.10 p.m.

Consideration of amendments on Report resumed on Clause 1.

[Amendment No. 2 not moved.]

Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 3:


    Page 1, line 9, leave out "thinks" and insert "decides"

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The noble Baroness said: My Lords, Amendment No. 3 asks the Government to think again and substitute the word "decides" for the word "thinks" on page 1, line 9, of the Bill. I apologise for labouring the point but I am concerned that the Bill should stand the test of time. By now the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, must know every dash, comma, dot and interpretation of it. I am sure that he recalls clearly the many arguments that we put forward at different stages. I am also certain that he knows exactly what he has or has not committed the Government to. However, three or four Ministers down the road and after a couple more departmental reorganisations, I fear that all that detail will be lost. Therefore, I am anxious that we make it clear on the face of the Bill that where the Minister is required to take an active part in the decision-making, he does so. The Bill currently states,


    "the Secretary of State thinks".

I believe that that is parliamentary language, but I hope that the Minister will accept the word "decides" that I propose as it clearly implies that the Secretary of State will go through a conscious and rational process. I beg to move.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I support the amendment. It governs the exercise of powers, which are referred to in Amendment No. 19. I refer to the exercise of powers under Clauses 5 to 7.

The word "thinks" confers an absolute discretion which is not justiciable, whereas the word "decides"—that is, a decision—is justiciable and affords judicial review as to the grounds of the decision. A decision would have to be based on some ground and that ground would be a report from an inspector or a series of inspectors' reports. That could be safeguarded on judicial review and that would afford a reasonable measure of safeguard within the law. As I say, I support the amendment.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, the group of amendments we are discussing concerns the debate in Committee which became famous for the depth of its philosophical insight as regards whether something was material or immaterial and what "immaterial" meant. No doubt the Government will shortly move their amendment to remove the word "immaterial". However, there were two aspects to the "immaterial" debate. One concerned the question of what the word meant—the Government amendment deals with that matter and makes it starkly clear—the other concerned whether what it meant was or was not a good thing.

It is our view that new Section 1A is badly phrased. The Government are saying in effect that certain things do not matter in any decision whether to slaughter. In other words, anyone who says that an animal cannot be slaughtered because it is not infected, has not been in contact with or exposed to infection or has been vaccinated will be told to go away because those things do not matter. It appears that any animal can be slaughtered which the Secretary of State in his or her wisdom thinks should be slaughtered. We have tabled an amendment to make clear that animals can

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be slaughtered only under certain circumstances. We believe that animals can be satisfactorily treated with vaccine against foot and mouth disease. We have tabled the amendment to establish the difference in thinking between ourselves and the Government. I do not think that there is a cat in whatever's chance of the Minister accepting the amendment but it is an important statement of principle and illustrates why the fundamental philosophy behind the Bill is wrong.

5.15 p.m.

The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, one cannot possibly have someone just thinking something. I give the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, the benefit of the doubt in that I know that he thinks about what he is doing. Whether he thinks correctly or thinks wrongly is a matter of judgment as between my judgment and his, both of which may be wrong. The point is that Ministers must decide, not just think. A decision implies intellectual rigour. For the benefit of those of a less historical frame of mind than myself, it was Abbe Sieyes who said, "gouverner, c'est choisir"; in other words, to govern is to make decisions. So governments have to make decisions and be held accountable for those decisions. The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has to decide a matter, not just to think in a woolly way. I know that his intellectual processes are rather more rigorous than that, but perhaps those of some of his successors might not be.


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