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Lord Whitty: My Lords, I have had the advantage of seeing the draft protocol. It is in a form that is intended to explain the use of the new power rather than to give traditional and more precise powers, which is the normal purpose of secondary legislation. Can the noble Lord, with his knowledge of secondary legislation, see how that protocol, which has been generally welcomed, could be turned into secondary legislation? I cannot see that. There are other ways that Parliament might wish to debate it, but as a piece of secondary legislation I do not think that that will work. It would certainly not be normal procedure in this House or in the other place.

Lord Moran: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, he has not answered the question that I put to him. I realise that it will inevitably take some time for the process of the draft directive to go towards finality. But, for the purposes of the Bill, is he proposing simply to ignore the work that is going on, or does he envisage a short life for the Bill until that comes through?

Lord Whitty: No, my Lords. If the approach adopted at European level has legal force, it will come through the normal process for dealing with European legislation. The point I am making is that whatever strategy the European Commission decides in future that we should follow, it will require both powers of slaughter and vaccination. It may shift significantly, as Commissioner Byrne has implied, towards vaccination in the wider sense, even if slaughter is used for the diseased animals and their immediate circle. But it will require both powers, so the clause will not be affected. In all circumstances, we will need the option of those powers; the European Union may direct us to a greater priority for one set of powers than for the other, but we shall need both.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I remind your Lordships that my noble friend the Minister has finished responding and has sat down. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, raised an issue and my noble friend was merely clarifying it. On this occasion, the Minister has long since sat down.

Lord Greaves: My Lords, I thank your Lordships for those multiple interventions. The Minister may well be right to say that the way in which the protocols are phrased at present is not appropriate for statutory instrument. If the amendment were carried, we might well have to rephrase it in the language appropriate for statutory instrument, but the basic content and substance of the protocol is appropriate for an instrument before Parliament. I seek to test the opinion of the House.

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5.51 p.m.

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Murton of Lindisfarne): The Question is that Amendment No. 7A shall be agreed to. As many are of that opinion will say, "Content". To the contrary, "Not-Content". I think the Contents have it. Clear the Bar.

Division called.

The Lord Chancellor: Tellers for the Contents have not been appointed, pursuant to Standing Order 53. A Division therefore cannot take place, and I declare that the "Not-Contents" have it.

[Amendment No. 7B not moved.]

Earl Peel moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 7, Amendment No. 7C:


    Line 22, after "exercised" insert ", which shall include the application of such methods of detecting disease in animals as may be available"

The noble Earl said: My Lords, in moving the amendment I start by declaring an interest: I own land on which livestock farming takes place.

I welcome the Minister's amendment, Amendment No. 7, in principle, but there undoubtedly remains a strong divergence of opinion about the most effective methods of controlling foot and mouth disease.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, perhaps the noble Earl would give way for a moment. I hope that noble Lords who need to have conversations will leave the Chamber. We on the Front Bench cannot hear the noble Earl.

Earl Peel: My Lords, the noble Baroness seems to have had a miraculous effect on the House. A deathly hush has come upon us.

To repeat, there remains a divergence of opinion about the most effective methods of controlling foot and mouth disease. Even after the recent epidemic with all its horrific consequences, there is still no line on whether slaughter or vaccination is the most effective approach—although earlier we decided that vaccination would clearly be a preferable option.

However, if there is one point on which we can all agree, it must be that every effort has to be made to mitigate the slaughter of uninfected animals. From everyone's perspective, the sight of those mass slaughters must be reduced to a minimum. They had a traumatic effect on rural people, farmers and visitors. The whole country was deeply moved by what it saw. Inevitably, many thousands of animals were slaughtered that were not infected by foot and mouth disease. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that that does not happen again. Many figures are bandied around, but I read recently that only 1 per cent of slaughtered sheep were actually infected by foot and mouth disease.

Consequently, I am certain that everyone wants a sufficiently rapid diagnostic testing system to be developed that can be used on the farm, thus

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determining whether foot and mouth disease is present before a wholesale slaughter is undertaken. Such a mechanism would bring enormous confidence to the relationship between the State Veterinary Service and the farming industry and reduce the conflicts and tensions that inevitably build up during such traumatic times.

In his letter of October 14th to me, the Minister kindly confirmed that there were two types of rapid test for the presence of the foot and mouth virus. One of the tests is described by the Minister as,


    "a pen-side test that takes 15 minutes and is similar to home pregnancy tests".

That is an interesting turn of phrase; perhaps the Minister has more experience of such matters than I have. The other method is more sophisticated. I shall not describe it to your Lordships; I certainly do not understand it. Although a portable version of that method has now been developed in the USA, it is still relatively difficult to perform in field conditions. Clearly, it is only a question of time before the difficulties are overcome or a company comes forward with an alternative foolproof system. My amendment would include in the Government's amendment, Amendment No. 7—relating to the disease control protocol—the provision that, when such methods become available, their use will be mandatory.

In his letter, the Minister said:


    "When validated diagnostic tests for field use become available, DEFRA will ensure that the State Veterinary Service has access to them".

I welcome that important first step, but there is a world of difference between allowing access to something and giving a firm commitment to use it. Given the enormous implications of the slaughter policy, it would be odd—to say the least—or even disingenuous not to use appropriate equipment that would give a foolproof answer as to whether such methods were necessary. Apart from anything else, the saving to the Government in compensation alone, if unaffected animals were not slaughtered, would be enormous. If such equipment were available and the Government were satisfied that it worked, it should be incumbent on vets to use it. Why have it, if it is not to be used to optimum effect?

I leave your Lordships with a final thought. We should imagine the case of a farmer who has had his herd destroyed in circumstances in which it was deemed expedient to do so. How will he feel, knowing that such a testing system existed and that officials chose not to use it? A lingering doubt will remain with that farmer for the rest of his life.

When we were discussing Amendment No. 1, tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, I scribbled down something that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said. He said that the Government would grasp with both hands any opportunity to find ways of preventing mass slaughter. My simple amendment would go a long way to achieving what the noble Lord seeks. I beg to move.

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6 p.m.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I support the noble Earl's amendment, although I would go further and say that the Government should use expertise from outside government. The Minister and the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, will remember that Dr Colin Fink approached DEFRA with a test that would have differentiated between vaccinated animals and animals that were diseased. Because the scientists in DEFRA had not invented the equipment themselves, they would not hear anything about it. I summarise drastically what happened, but I do not wish to see it happen again. We must use the most up-to-date equipment available, and that requirement should be written into the Bill.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I strongly support the noble Earl's amendment. It is far-sighted, and, as he said, it does not commit the Government to immediate action. When the technology is in place, it should be used.

Professor Fred Brown worked at Pirbright on various tests for foot and mouth disease. However, because of funding difficulties there, he now lives and works in the United States. The testing that has been referred to is at an advanced stage. There may soon be two alternative tests available, one of which was referred to earlier. The amendment is prudent and would ensure that, when such technological advances were made, we could benefit from them.

One of the principles enunciated in the draft European Commission report is that rapid diagnosis is a key factor in tackling and preventing the disease. The amendment would assist that process.


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