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Lord Monro of Langholm: My Lords, I support the noble Earl. There is consumer resistance to beasts which have been vaccinated or given hormones in order to fatten. The public are naturally suspicious about anything unnatural occurring to livestock.
Now is the time for the Government to be clear about the exact procedures if—heaven forbid—there were another outbreak. There is added concern about the future valuation of livestock, with a corps of valuers and fixed prices for a cow, ewe, ram and so on. As I have said in previous debates on the Bill, the word "compensation" is an anomaly. While one is paid a sum of money for the value of the sheep or cow on the day it was slaughtered, it in no way compensates for the loss of profits over the three or four years ahead from a flock of sheep or a herd of dairy cattle.
The Bill should state clearly who will do the valuation: whether it is to be a mutual decision between the farmer and the department or from a national list of valuers. Is the valuation to be undertaken as at present? There has been some criticism but in the early days by and large it was fair. Farmers want to know the position as regards vaccinated stock. As the noble Earl said, there will be repercussions on the value of a beast which has been vaccinated because the public do not like the thought of buying vaccinated meat.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, the noble Countess reminded us that there is a long precedent of animal products which have been injected with all kinds of vaccines coming into the food chain. Sheep are routinely injected for pulpy kidney disease and other sheep diseases. There seems to be no problem about their coming into the food chain. Anyone who knows the industry knows that animals injected with these vaccines come commonly into the food chain.
I hope that the Minister will outline the measures taken to protect the public who are offered vaccinated meat. I assume that before a vaccine for farm animals is licensed for use by the agricultural industry, the relevant scientific bodies have examined, tested and monitored it, and that the Minister is told that it is safe to put it on the market. I imagine that such vaccines are subject to the same process as medicines that are licensed for human use. I hope that the Minister will tell us whether the foot and mouth vaccine has been the subject of studies comparable to those carried out previously on the other vaccines to which the noble Countess and I referred. I am not sure what the monitoring process consists of, but we need to know at this stage whether the foot and mouth vaccine has been cleared by the scientific bodies.
As the noble Earl, Lord Peel, said, Amendment No. 11 is a probing amendment. The same applies to
Amendment No. 15. Everything depends on what the Government mean by the words at the bottom of page 2 of the Bill—
- "compensation of such an amount as may be prescribed by order of the Secretary of State".
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am horrified to feel so many negative vibes. What is the farming community doing? It should be promoting its animals and saying that they are being vaccinated to keep them healthy and to provide the public with healthy meat.
In response to the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, of course the Medicines Control Agency vets the medicines that are given to animals just as much as it does our medicines. Why are we farmers not saying that our animals are being kept healthy by vaccinating them? Why are we whinging about supermarkets? Why are we not telling them that there is nothing wrong with vaccinated meat?
I can see no reason for the amendment of the noble Earl, Lord Peel. There is no need to compensate for a vaccinated animal that is still healthy. The farming community must get up off its bottom and stop expecting the Government to do absolutely everything for it. We hear constantly about what the Government must do. I agree that the Food Standards Agency can encourage and support, but it is up to us as farmers to promote our products. We are not doing that; we are expecting somebody else to do it throughout.
Earl Peel: My Lords, before the noble Countess sits down, is she telling us that to the best of her knowledge— which, we acknowledge, is very considerable—that there is no two-tier market between non-vaccinated and vaccinated animals, and that retailers show no prejudice towards vaccinated animals?
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, the only real two-tier market that I know of is the organic and non-organic one. Some organic animals are vaccinated but most are not. That is the only time when there should be a two-tier market.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, during the foot and mouth outbreak, vets in Argentina stated clearly in an interview that all meat leaving Argentina, as a susceptible country, had been vaccinated. I am pretty sure that some of it found its way from certain regions of Argentina to supermarket shelves in this country. We need to be forthright in acknowledging that vaccinated meat is available already and that if British animals are involved, a two-tier market should not
occur. The noble Earl is quite right to table a probing amendment on the matter to see what the Minister says about it.
The Earl of Onslow: My Lords, before the noble Lord sits down—and I know this is a trick—discussion about inoculated Argentine animals has taken place in the House previously. At that time, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said that he would respond to me on the issue. I am not making an accusation, but I feel that he was not entirely sure of the facts. I hope that the noble Lord can press the Minister to answer the question on inoculated animals from Argentina, Uruguay, and other countries, which I am certain are coming into this country. You will appreciate that I am trying to get around a procedural point.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the noble Earl should know that it is two strikes and he is out.
Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I can only say to the noble Earl that I have already made that point.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, during his first, helpful intervention, the noble Earl, Lord Onslow, pointed out that there were problems with the compensation system. Those problems are being addressed.
Amendments Nos. 11 and 15 suggest that we create a two-tier compensation system. However, rather than end a tendency to a two-tier market of vaccinated and non-vaccinated meat, such a system would encourage it. The noble Earl, Lord Peel, over-simplified history but nevertheless it was indicated at one point that food-chain processors and supermarkets would not accept vaccinated meat or milk. As the noble Countess spelt out, that is not rational nor is it practised. Indeed, to answer the noble Earl's second point, consumers in supermarkets here and throughout Europe do not seem to differentiate between vaccinated meat, which is imported in accordance with European standards, and non-vaccinated meat. So, there should not be a problem; there is only a slight hangover problem.
The point is made not just in my letter to the noble Earl. The Follett report by the Royal Society states that if we are to adopt a vaccinate-to-live policy as mainstream, meat and meat products from vaccinated animals must enter the food chain normally; that is to say, on the same terms as the product of a non-vaccinated animal. That is a pre-condition to the success of a vaccination-to-live policy. It is rational, and, if we are all to support a vaccinate-to-live policy, it would be helpful for the farming industry, retailers and processors to make that clear. I hope that we support it; in which case it would be inappropriate to have separate prices for vaccinated and slaughtered animals. Compensation for vaccination as such would not therefore arise. To do something different, as the noble Earl's amendment suggests—as, to an extent, does the noble Baroness's—would be to go in the wrong direction. We should encourage the industry as a whole—the whole food chain, including consumers—to accept, as in practice they do, that
vaccinated meat and meat from a healthy animal are one and the same in quality and in every other regard. That is a sine qua non of an effective general vaccinate-to-live policy.I hope that I have answered the point and that it will not be pursued.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister will realise that we were seeking clarification. It is difficult when half the people do not understand the implications of a vaccinate-to-live policy. I agree with the noble Countess, Lady Mar, that there are chickens and all sorts of other regularly inoculated meats coming in. One of our problems is that it is common practice, but people are not aware of it. The House needs to recognise that the foot and mouth outbreak highlighted many myths and misunderstandings about the way in which some of our livestock are produced. I hope that the Minister takes that point away and considers it. People saw animals burned on pyres and thought that there was something wrong with the meat. That is why the issue has arisen.
The Minister is aware that we are pressing for a vaccinate-to-live policy. However, unless we all understand the options and deal with the issue head-on, the public will feel that many questions are left unanswered.
I am grateful to the Minister for his response to the amendment. I hope that what other colleagues have said shows that there is still a hurdle to overcome. We need much better general understanding of the issue. Although I accept that vaccination was mentioned last time the issue was raised, the Government did not answer the question then. They said that they would take the view of the industry and of consumers, but there was no outcome. The issue has dragged on and here we are six months later without it having been answered or addressed.
I hope that the amendments have given us a chance to clarify the current position and the Government's thinking on where we are going. Before Third Reading, the industry and others interested in the issue will have a chance to make representations to us if they are still unhappy. I am grateful to the Minister for what he said, but we still have quite a long way to go. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
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