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Lord Greaves: My Lords, I am pleased to support the amendment moved by the noble Countess. In doing so, I shall speak to Amendment No. 17, which is tabled in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth, and also comment briefly on Amendment No. 18.

In many ways, from an emotional point of view, many of us would like to support Amendment No. 18. However, if the House were to pass such an amendment, it would extend the constitutional powers of this Chamber somewhat; in effect, it would be tantamount to denying the Government legislation to which they are entitled. Therefore, we are unable to support the amendment on those grounds. However, we support Amendment No. 16, which has been moved by a Member of this House who possibly knows more about this subject than most noble Lords in this place. The noble Countess's expertise proved to be extremely valuable during the Committee stage.

In tabling Amendment No. 17, we are seeking to take account of the extended and fascinating debates on the subject that took place in Committee which I am sure many of us found both educative and interesting. It was necessary to undertake considerable research in order to be able to take part in such debates, but that experience was most interesting. Two issues emerged during our discussions in Committee. I shall not go into the technical details involved because we are on Report and such information has been reported in Hansard.

The first point is that the science involved is only partially understood, but its understanding is increasing quite quickly. Indeed, the whole understanding of genotyping, and so on, is relatively new and has only been really understood in recent years. However, like the science surrounding it, such understanding is progressing at a rapid pace. When the

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Minister wrote to me about scrapie—a copy of his letter was sent to other noble Lords—he set out a large number of research projects that are currently underway. We all look forward to reading the results of such research.

The emphasis, however, is always on the statement, "We look forward to seeing the results of this or that". The fact is that we still do not know a very great deal. In two, four or five years, an approach that seemed necessary may no longer seem necessary. The fact that the science is changing quickly is one reason to support Amendment No. 17. We believe that the clause and schedule relating to scrapie should come into effect only on an affirmative resolution of this House and of the other place. The amendment would ensure that, should the Government decide to implement the provisions, we are able to ask whether the provisions as set out in the Bill are still appropriate.

Another point which clearly emerged from our consideration in Committee was that the Government themselves are not clear on exactly when they want to bring this legislation into effect. Various noble Lords asked the Minister for a date, but he—in his usual charming way, trying to sound positive—evaded the issue. He did not clearly tell us whether it would be six months, one year, two years or three years. One reason he gave for being unable to answer was that the voluntary National Scrapie Plan is still in its early stages. One reason he gave for wanting Clause 4 as a backup was that it would encourage people to take part in the National Scrapie Plan, take-up for which, in its first year, has not been as high as he had hoped.

Noble Lords and others have suggested that there are many good reasons for low take-up. In the aftermath of the foot and mouth outbreak, for example, people have had other things on their minds. We said that the plan may gather pace, and the Minister agreed. However, he said that he wants this legislation on the statute book so that people are aware of the plan. He wants the legislation essentially as a stick, with the National Scrapie Plan as a carrot. Although carrots may not be the right image to use in relation to all animals, I am sure that the goats owned by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, would eat them as well as almost anything else. It is the carrot-and-stick approach.

We are saying in Amendment No. 17 that the House, having scrutinised the Bill and attempted to persuade the Government to improve it, should let the Government have this legislation. When they seek to put the legislation into effect, however, we should as a precaution require them to explain why they are seeking to do so. An affirmative resolution would achieve that objective. It would not be a huge imposition on the Government and it would not cause substantial delay.

Scrapie is not a rampaging, highly infectious disease, but an endemic disease which has been around for perhaps 200 or 300 years. Although we want to get rid of it as best as we can, we should have time at the appropriate stage to reflect on whether the Government's objectives are right. Amendment

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No. 17 would achieve that objective. It would enable the House to consider not only the issues raised in Amendment No. 16, but issues that may arise in the future. Given continuing research, we may not yet know what those issues will be. We therefore ask the Government to accept Amendment No. 17 as plain common sense.

7.30 p.m.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, my name is linked with that of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in proposing Amendment No. 16. I shall not rehearse the issues raised by the amendment, as the noble Countess has already done so very fully and eloquently. I believe that the Minister is already well aware of the noble Countess's reservations about TSEs and the scrapie provisions.

I feel that we have made some progress, albeit only a little, in that the Government now recognise that rare breeds are a special case. I think that they must therefore realise why so many of us are concerned about the scrapie provisions. As we have consistently made our case in relation to these provisions—on Second Reading, in Committee and today—I would be disappointed if the Minister did not accept some of these amendments. There is genuine concern, both inside the House and outside it, about the provisions—which, as other noble Lords have said, are not emergency provisions. Scrapie therefore differs from some of the matters that we dealt with in Committee and on Report. We support Amendment No. 17, and I hope that the Government will accept it.

As I said, I do not need to add anything to the very clear remarks on Amendment No. 16 made by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. She and I share great concern about the whole issue of scrapie. Noble Lords may remember, for example, our earlier explicit debates on the research done on cow brains that should have been done on sheep brains. However, that is in the past. Research is currently being done to investigate specific scrapie issues, but it is not yet finished and only partly understood. It therefore seems only sensible to restrict the way in which these provisions are implemented. Accordingly, I support this group of amendments, particularly Amendment No. 17, which will be moved shortly by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves.

Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, the rigid criteria in Amendment No. 16 would prevent the acceleration by compulsory means of the National Scrapie Plan, which aims to reduce and eventually eradicate scrapie from the GB national flock. This initiative is strongly endorsed by the stakeholder groups and by SEAC. Let us not forget that scrapie is an extremely nasty and invariably fatal neurological disease. Measures to eradicate it are supported by the vast majority of stakeholders.

I accept that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, is not one of those who supports the plan. However, there remains a theoretical risk that BSE could be found in sheep, masked by scrapie. It is therefore important to achieve a flock that is resistant to scrapie, and to BSE

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if it is there, within an acceptable time span. To activate these powers only when the presence of BSE is confirmed would be akin to closing the stable door once the horse has bolted.

We shall, of course, involve all stakeholder groups in discussions of what would be a practical time-scale for the introduction of compulsory powers. I therefore cannot accept this amendment.

I turn to Amendment No. 17. Order-making powers in the scrapie provisions will be subject to the negative resolution statutory instrument procedure. I tell the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, that requiring an affirmative resolution procedure for activation of the entire clause is unnecessary and would be very time-consuming. He asked when the clause will be activated, and the reply remains, only as and when it is deemed necessary. However, I assure him that there would be public consultation in advance of the activation of these powers so that all interested organisations could comment.

I turn to Amendment No. 18 and some of the aspects of Amendment No. 48. This part of the Bill deals with the powers to enable us to safeguard human health by making sheep resistant to TSEs through a speeding up of the National Scrapie Plan. The National Scrapie Plan is a long-term programme aiming to reduce and eventually eradicate scrapie from the national sheep flock. It is strongly supported by the sheep sector and other stakeholders. It is also endorsed by SEAC and the Food Standards Agency. At present it is voluntary. Farmers who enter it have their sheep genotyped to establish whether they are genetically resistant to scrapie, with breeding controls then being imposed on susceptible sheep, as the noble Countess recognised. It remains a theoretical risk that BSE could be found in sheep, masked by scrapie. It is important therefore to achieve a flock which is resistant to scrapie—and BSE, if it is present—within a reasonable time span. We shall continue to involve the sheep industry in discussions on what the practical time-scale should be.

The Food Standards Agency has specifically called on the Government to speed up TSE eradication in this country. The Bill would give us the powers, if necessary, to accelerate the process by compulsory means. Supplementary regulations would need to be made before we could activate the powers. I must stress that we would consult all stakeholders before we activated the powers and would discuss the time-scale.

Phenotype characteristics were mentioned. The Government's Amendment No. 51 will ensure that genotypes are taken into account when considering applying a restriction notice. I am sure that the noble Countess knows that, although the European Commission published proposals which set minimum requirements for EU-wide genotyping involving initial voluntary participation, becoming compulsory at a later date, they have been subject only to fairly limited discussion and the outcome is uncertain.

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I say to the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, that we discussed with the industry in great detail the issue of rare breeds. That is why the exception has been made. If we listen to the industry and have regard to its view about rare breeds, but that is then used as an argument to change the whole policy, the Government may be tempted not to listen. I know that the noble Baroness would not want that and will be pleased that we have reached an agreement on rare breeds.

We are unable to accept the amendment. Ultimately, the Government must be able to safeguard human health, respond to the Food Standards Agency, to the future of our sheep industry and to its role in the rural economy.


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