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Baroness Byford: My Lords, my noble friend raises important issues. He has spelt his case out clearly so, apart from supporting the thoughts behind his well-presented case on the use and exercise of the powers, I shall not elaborate. He has clearly covered it all.

I hope that the Minister will be able to allay some of our fears. As my noble friend said, there will be no appeal until after the animals have been slaughtered. It is not an emergency. As I said, a writ of entry will not be disclosed until after the animals have been slaughtered and, with vaccination now playing such a high part in consideration of future disease control, we ask the Minister carefully to consider the new clause. I look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say.

The Lord Bishop of Hereford: My Lords, perhaps I may speak briefly in support of the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. With respect to the noble Lord, he cited paragraph 27 of the Joint Committee on Human Rights report, but it is significant. That report was, on the whole, favourable towards the Government and not unduly critical of the provisions of the Bill even as originally drafted. Many of your Lordships were surprised by the tolerance for what appeared to be infringements of human rights in the

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Bill, but the Joint Committee took the line that we may be faced with a crisis and that severe measures were justified.

However, one of the clearest sections of the report suggests that such information should be served, and it is extremely important that that should be done. Granted the general tenor of the report, it is particularly significant that that recommendation is so clear. For that reason, I strongly support what the noble Lord said.

The Earl of Northesk: My Lords, perhaps I may add my support to that for my noble friend. It strikes me that the progress of the Bill has been somewhat unusual. The great virtue of the amendment—the Government should appreciate this virtue—is that it draws the distinction between what might be described as normal statutory powers and those required in a national emergency. In so doing, the amendment guarantees that due judicial process—and, indeed, natural justice—is adhered to.

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, willingly support the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. In what may be regarded as rather a long speech, I heard the noble Lord, Lord Carter, whispering, "Are they paid by the minute?". We all think that about the lawyers in this House, because they all tend to go on a bit. That is a stock joke about them. However, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell, does himself a disservice by saying that he is just an ordinary lawyer. He is by no means an ordinary lawyer and he would not be in your Lordships' House if he were. His service to the House has proved otherwise. The noble Lord made some valid points. He pulled together many factors that should have been pulled together in the earlier stages of the Bill's progress.

I must make one major criticism of the Minister. The big amendments that we have considered this evening have been too big for Report stage. We needed more time to discuss them, and we have failed the farming community by not being able to discuss them properly. I am disappointed that we did not have the amendments when we were in Committee, as we should have done. After all, the Minister had all summer to produce the amendments.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, made some good points in his amendment, and they should be accepted.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, we agree with that. The amendment refers to sworn information, required assistance, suspension by statutory instrument and the provision of a code of practice for slaughter. Those relate to important principles, and they have rightly been brought to our attention. The addition of such principles would strengthen the Bill and the rights of individuals who stand to lose a great deal and have some of their liberties infringed.

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9.15 p.m.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, I appreciate that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, has moved the amendment in an attempt to provide a general clause that would qualify a large part of the Bill, rather than doing it section by section. The noble Lord has raised certain principles. Neither the specific details nor the mechanism that the noble Lord proposes is appropriate, and I shall explain why. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, may have a point about the lateness of some of the amendments, but I have tried to keep noble Lords who were involved with the Bill informed of my intentions.

Our amendments meet many of the anxieties expressed at earlier stages, particularly those relating to the warrant procedure and the use of slaughter powers. Since the Bill was first produced and since the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, produced his previous version of the amendment, we have committed ourselves to serving a copy of the warrant on the occupier at the time of entry; keeping a warrant record; limiting the definition of persons from whom an inspector can ask assistance; publishing the animal disease slaughter protocol that we discussed this evening; and requiring the Secretary of State to publish reasons for adopting slaughter powers. Those are all substantial constraints on the powers about which the noble Lord expresses continued anxiety. There are now substantial procedures that Ministers and government authorities must go through to exercise the powers to which the amendment refers.

The problem with the mechanism suggested by the noble Lord is that it defines a situation in peacetime, as opposed to a situation of national emergency. The powers are not for peacetime. A foot and mouth disease epidemic will—automatically, immediately and instantaneously—be a national emergency, as would be an outbreak of any of the other diseases referred to at various points in the report to which the same approach might be extended. Therefore, we are discussing powers that would be exerted in a national emergency in any case.

A national emergency could come upon us suddenly, and it would cause severe delay to oblige the Government to come to this House and to the other place to seek approval to suspend the provisions of the clause in order to trigger the necessary powers. That delay would be right at the beginning. We are not talking about a delay in the operation of powers of entry, slaughter or vaccination; the amendment would mean that, right at the beginning of an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, the Government would not have access to the full plethora of measures that this Bill and other legislation would otherwise provide.

When foot and mouth disease broke out, one of the major criticisms of the Government was that we did not act quickly enough. The criticism was that we did not have the powers immediately to hand, so that we could deploy them in a policy of slaughter or, as advocated by many—including, in the light of the reports that we have received, the Government—vaccination. If we had had to seek powers, we might as well have relied on emergency powers in the first place.

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The disease is no respecter of parliamentary timetables. Despite what many of us may think, this House sits for only half the year, in terms of the number of days. In terms of the number of hours—hours are important, when disease breaks out—it sits for rather less than that. It may not seem to be thus sometimes, but that is the case. Noble Lords may recall that, on the day that foot and mouth disease broke out, we heard a Statement from my noble friend Lady Hayman; the other place was not sitting. Had we to come to Parliament to trigger the powers that we considered necessary, what would we do if the disease broke out at a time that was not convenient for your Lordships or—even more likely—convenient for the other place?

Therefore, I do not believe that the mechanism proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, of "unsuspending" the powers—if I can use a word that is probably not in the dictionary—would work. Either the Government directly put the limitations in the Bill or we accept that the limitations already proposed, and some others that we are about to debate, will limit the power.

It is important to recognise that those powers will be exerted only when there is an outbreak of a serious disease or, in the immediate period, in relation to foot and mouth disease. Therefore, the distinction between peacetime and a national emergency is theoretical because the powers will be used only in a period of national emergency. While I appreciate the attempt to put a general provision on the face of the Bill, the mechanism chosen by the noble Lord would not be appropriate.

Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for engaging in a constructive discussion. Frankly, that is the only way in which we can resolve constitutional affairs in this House. I thank all noble Lords on all sides of the House at this hour who have supported the amendment.

I do not want to take much time, but there is a problem which has been acknowledged by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. It is a novel situation in which in peace-time an emergency situation can arise at any time. The Bill, as he put it, covers both. There is no necessity for any distinction—I hope I do not do an injustice and I invite the noble Lord to intervene if I am wrong—to be made because the Minister will always operate the matter fairly, sensibly and reasonably.

With respect, that does not accord with my experience at the Bar. I have spent half my time fighting cases where Ministers have not acted reasonably, sensibly and so forth. I quite understand that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and many others believe that they do. But I know they do not. I say in an irenic spirit that we start from different ends. We look at the matter from different ends of a telescope.

The idea of having a statutory instrument in this extraordinary dual situation or quadripartite situation is not unusual from a constitutional point of view. If

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there is an emergency situation it is not a Minister of State who decides; it is Parliament. The only way that can be done quickly—and I agree with the noble Lord that it must be done quickly—is by Parliament, at the drop of a hat, bringing forward a statutory instrument. That is all that is needed. I am not asking that the noble Lord should agree with me—I do not believe he ever will—but that he should take time to consider the debate and give a further response to the points that I have raised.

When bringing a case before the Appellate Committee of your Lordships' House we had to present a written case and at the end give brief reasons. Those reasons were most difficult to draft because of the perversity of the noble and learned Lords who always looked at the end first. My brief reason for objection as regards the Bill is that it sets an untoward precedent which affords a manifest injustice. I ask the Minister to muse on that perhaps with some understanding.

In view of the general support that I have received, which I did not expect or seek, from all sides of the House, and in view of the hour, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment so that we may continue a debate on the basis of further constructive thought.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9.30 p.m.

Clause 5 [Treatment: power of entry]:


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