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Lord Greaves moved Amendment No. 20:
- Page 3, line 34, leave out from "informed" to end of line and insert "in writing of the decision to apply for the warrant and of the reasons for that decision including a copy of the sworn information, and has been notified of the time and place at which he may make representations to the justice of the peace about whether the warrant should be issued"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 20 heads a group of amendments most of which stand in the name of my noble friend Lord Livsey and myself. They attempt to tackle some of the problems highlighted by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Croy. I am sorry, I meant the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway. I hesitate to suggest that the two have anything in common—well, not a great deal. I had better get on before I dig my hole much deeper.
These amendments attempt to tackle some of the problems which the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, highlighted—and some other problems, too—based around the decisions taken on them by magistrates, the serving of the warrants and the right of people to make representations to the magistrates. They also attempt to deal with the related issue of what happens when premises are unoccupied or the occupier is absent.
In respect of those and other areas, the Minister has made considerable changes to the Bill since it first came to your Lordships' House. He has built in many "constraints", as he called them. However, in this area most of them have not been constraints as much as clarifications. They are welcome because the position is now much clearer. Attempts have been made to make the procedures used in different circumstances
more uniform and much of what the Minister has done has led to greater openness in the Bill. That, too, is most welcome.However, there remains a series of deep concerns about what happens when people wish to enter premises either for the treatment of animals, for the slaughter of animals or for the testing of animals. The provisions relating to those three areas are substantially uniform and these amendments would make uniform changes to them. The first amendment requires the reasons for the decision to be provided in writing. We believe that that is important and that a copy of the information should be provided, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway.
My second point concerns the ability of people to make representations to a JP. The letter sent to noble Lords by the Minister implied that the Lord Chancellor's Department does not have a high opinion of this suggestion; that different procedures apply for obtaining warrants generally and for making representations to JPs and magistrates, and that it was not a good idea.
It may be that the three areas should be treated differently and that provisions for making representations are needed only in cases of slaughter. The Minister may say that slaughter is often very urgent, as is vaccination, but there is a difference between the purpose of a warrant for entry for slaughter and any other warrant—that is, that its effect is irrevocable and terminal. In most other cases, no matter what unfortunate things may happen to people—they may be arrested, have their property removed, or whatever—the situation can be reversed. In the case of slaughter, it cannot. It may be said that the same is true in cases of treatment, although clearly the remedy and effect being sought is a great deal less traumatic.
I concede that uniform amendments to these different categories may not be the way forward. We are still searching for an ideal way of providing, in such traumatic circumstances, adequate civil rights to the owners, the farmers and the occupiers concerned, in a way that will not seriously affect the purpose of the operation. We all accept that at the height of an epidemic speed is of the essence.
In proposing the amendments, I do not believe that we have achieved a final, ideal solution. I do not believe that the Bill as it stands is adequate for meeting people's concerns or that the amendments on these matters put forward from other sides of the House have yet achieved the ideal. More discussion and thought is required. However, the problem is there; it has to be faced up to and improvements still have to be made to the Bill.
As to the question of what should happen where people turn up at unoccupied premises or where the occupier is absent but it is known, or it can reasonably be found out, where he is, the Government have not yet come forward with an adequate solution to this problem. If you go to a village and want to get access to a farm—and the farmer is in that village or nearby
and can be easily found—it is not reasonable simply to put up a notice at the unoccupied premises and to go away and assume that it has been seen. That is not reasonable in those circumstances.If it is known that the owner is a long way away and cannot be contacted, or if his telephone number cannot be found or he cannot be contacted easily on the telephone, that is a different circumstance. But where he can be contacted, either because he is nearby and people know where he is or because a telephone number on which he can be contacted is known—and is perhaps displayed on the premises—it is not reasonable to ignore that and to proceed as though he was not there.
We believe that these questions need to be answered. We hope that the Government will look to see whether they can come at least some way towards meeting us on them. These are matters to which we shall have to return at Third Reading. I beg to move.
Baroness Mallalieu: My Lords, the noble Lord has introduced his amendment with great diffidence, but he has put his finger on an aspect of the Bill that has greatly troubled me, as I indicated in Committee, and continues to do so.
One of the lasting legacies of the foot and mouth outbreak, which has led to continuing resentment, was the sense of powerlessness in the face of the authorities on the part of those faced with people attempting to get into their premises to slaughter their stock.
I accept that a balance has to be struck between the need to control disease urgently and the rights of the owners of the animals—the landowners and farmers. I appreciate that the paramount consideration in the Minister's mind—stung as he and his colleagues were by criticisms of their department—is that they should have the powers to act as swiftly as possible.
However, we are talking not about diseased animals, not about animals which are dangerous contacts, but about those that are healthy and which the Minister is considering using as some form of "fire-break". It seems to me that the minimum that those farmers should have the right to expect is to be told why entry to their premises is required and what the basis of the application is; to be told when and where the application is to be made; and to be given a chance to be heard.
The Minister said in Committee that that would cause delay—and so it will; but it will be a minimal delay in the circumstances. It is always inconvenient to authorities when lawyers are brought in. But surely, if you are going to destroy someone's healthy stock, which is the proposal here, you must give that person the opportunity to be heard at an early stage of the warrant.
This is not a parallel with an arrest warrant or a search warrant. If granted, it will result in the destruction of the animals. As the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has said, what on earth is the point of subsequent judicial review if your herd is lying dead on the floor of your barn?
These amendments may not be perfect, but they strike at a matter which I urge my noble friend the Minister to address. If it is not addressed, that feeling of powerlessness in the face of the authorities will be translated into this Bill as well, and he will be storing up even greater resentment if these powers—heaven forfend!— ever have to be used in the future.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, I could not agree more strongly with the noble Baroness. The amendment picks up points in amendments that I tabled in Committee. I felt strongly that it was essential that anyone who found that his premises were about to be entered by the authorities and his livestock killed should have the right to know when he could make representations to a justice of the peace. I strongly support the suggestion that an occupier should be,
- "notified of the time and place at which he may make representations",
It could, of course, mean a delay. I accept that. I hope that in replying the Minister will not stress that aspect too much. If the process is properly organised, the delay could be very small indeed. Writing these kinds of provisions into the Bill has the added advantage that farmers will be less likely to make appeals in an attempt to avoid their livestock being killed.
In this context, I was struck by the Minister's letter to the noble Countess dated 17th October. The letter is headed "Animal Health Bill". The Minister has headed a number of paragraphs in the letter "Appeals information from North Yorkshire". I live in North Yorkshire. Happily, my farm was not affected by that dreadful outbreak. As I told noble Lords in Committee, we had outbreaks of foot and mouth disease less than 10 miles from us to the east, north and west but, happily, not to the south into the great pig-producing areas of the Vale of York. Happily, the disease did not strike us.
However, in North Yorkshire there were a good many appeals. In the letter to the noble Countess, the Minister refers to 55 local appeals. The Government repeatedly referred to those appeals as being in the Thirsk area. It caused huge offence in the area where I live. The Minister may recall my correspondence with him. In an extraordinarily ignorant way, the Government referred to all those appeals as being in the Thirsk area whereas many were not.
I have not referred to this issue in previous debates. However, I wish to put on record today that the way in which the Government referred to so many of the outbreaks in North Yorkshire as being in the Thirsk area—they were not—caused huge offence. Many were many miles from the Thirsk area where I live.
I declare an interest. Many years ago, as a young man I was a member of the NFU executive for the Thirsk branch. I commend the Government, at last, for referring to North Yorkshire rather than the Thirsk area. I apologise to noble Lords for perhaps appearing too parochial, but the offence caused by the
Government's ignorance needs putting right. The reference in the paragraphs in the letter to "Appeals information from North Yorkshire" (rather than the Thirsk area) will be widely welcomed. It is a situation where there is great rejoicing when the sinner repenteth.
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