Previous Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page


The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I have much sympathy with the amendment moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, but I suspect that the Minister will refer us to the parent Act, which tells us what are animals. It includes neither dogs nor fish. It would be helpful to make the amendment, but, unfortunately, the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, went off at a tangent.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I spoke at some length in Committee, so I shall be brief. There are other situations: there are cottages on farms that have become empty and farmhouses that have fallen empty. In our part of the world, many barns have been converted into accommodation. An inspector who came from a different area, where there were farm animals, might appropriate the help of some of the people living there. Opposite where I live, there is a barn complex in which 12 people live. Yet there are animals close by. The amendment would be sensible.

10.30 p.m.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the noble Countess made my point for me, although she took the effect away with her subsequent sentence.

I thought that I explained previously that in this context and others we were working on the basis of the Animal Health Act 1981 in which animals are defined as animals being susceptible to the disease. That does not include horses, fish or dogs. If we qualify that by saying "affected animals", there will be an argument about which of the susceptible animals are affected by the order or by the requirements of the inspector. It would be a confusing amendment as animals are already defined as animals that are susceptible. All such animals could be covered by a request for assistance. The amendment is not appropriate.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I am disappointed that the Minister considers my amendment inappropriate. I heard what he said, and it is an oversight on my part that I did not re-check. At this stage, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Byford moved Amendment No. 23:


The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 23, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 28, 35 and 54.

When we discussed my amendment, Amendment No. 235, in Committee, it evoked support from all parts. The Minister promised to re-examine the matter, and I acknowledged that there needed to be more work on the wording. As it now stands, the amendment would tie the date on the warrant firmly to the date on which it was approved. I seem to remember

22 Oct 2002 : Column 1317

that the noble Lord, Lord Carter, said that my previous amendment did not mean that the warrant had been signed and approved on the same day. I remember that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, said that some warrants were available pre-signed. It was not my intention to allow that. I hope that the new amendments will be accepted and will provide greater clarity.

At the time, the Minister invoked legal advice to the effect that the Bill should not contain unnecessary material. I agree, but this phrase is not unnecessary. The foot and mouth disease outbreak brought into the open the hostility of the Government towards the farming community. There was deep suspicion and unhappiness on all sides, as there still is. We have heard evidence that magistrates signed undated warrants. Detective novels, some of which have been filmed or televised, suggest that that practice still goes on, and we should say that it should not. To make sure that it does not, it should be made clear in the Bill that it is illegal. I beg to move.

Lord Jopling: My Lords, I shall listen with enormous interest to what the Minister says, if he decides to oppose the amendment. It would take extraordinary ingenuity to find reasons to oppose my noble friend's proposal. What possibly could be wrong with putting on the document the date on which it was approved by the justice of the peace, which should be clearly visible on the warrant?

Should the Minister seek to oppose the amendment he is being unnecessarily pedantic. I cannot conceive a single reason why it should be opposed. Even the noble Lord, Lord Carter, is assiduous in supporting the Government's line during the proceedings of the Bill to the extent that some of us wonder whether he is still on the Government's payroll. Even the noble Lord, Lord Carter, could not think of a single reason to oppose the amendment, which I consider the most reasonable amendment put before your Lordships today.

Lord Carter: My Lords, the noble Lord obviously has not noticed: I support the Government only when they are right.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, this section of the Bill has been strengthened to include a requirement that the authorities must retain a copy of the warrant, a copy of the record, any steps taken to effect the warrant to enter the premises, and actions taken on the premises. That is compared with the last time we discussed this issue. The Bill will be strengthened and those records will need to be kept for at least 12 months. Therefore, if there is a dispute concerning the date, that will be covered by those additional requirements.

However, I must say that my legal advice remains the same. There is no requirement for this provision to be stated on the face of the Bill, but I cannot think of any other rational argument against the amendment. Therefore, I am prepared to accept it.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, the Minister has made my night. I have to tell him, if he hadn't, I would have

22 Oct 2002 : Column 1318

voted again, and happily lost again. I am grateful to him—I know we have laughed in rejoicing—but it is a simple amendment that will be warmly welcomed. I thank the Minister warmly for that.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 6 [Slaughter: power of entry]:

Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 24:


    Page 5, leave out lines 6 and 7 and insert—


"( ) In this section and sections 62B, 62C and 62D "premises" excludes dwelling houses and buildings being used for non-agricultural purposes."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, Amendment No. 24 refers to the exclusion of dwelling houses and buildings being used for non-agricultural purposes. The amendment follows, in practical terms, many of the sentiments that were expressed in Amendment No. 20 proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, as well as many of my noble friends on this side of the House, on warrant to access.

The question is: what do they find when they get access? They find a very different situation that is moving rapidly on a regular basis. Increasingly, premises encompass activities which have nothing to do with the farming business. The farmhouse may have been sold off to a businessman or even an NHS consultant. The farmer and his family may have moved to the cottage that formerly housed the cowman, and so forth. We all understand the regular and continual move that is taking place and putting premises to alternative use.

Many outbuildings have been renewed and restored, and rented to companies employed in the advance of modern technology. I could take many from this House to farms near me in the Midlands where that is taking place at a rapid pace. Many of the enterprises use techniques and equipment which demand an environment that is more reminiscent of a food factory than a primary producer. It should be clear that inspectors have no right to demand entry to premises which they are told are not part of the farm; nor to those which indicate by name-plate signs in the window and so forth that they are separate entities.

This will become an ever-growing problem. It is part of the diversification process that is taking place. In today's business of farming, it is inevitable that it will continue. It will create a problem—I can see it coming—because of the enormous change in the use of buildings. I hope that the Minister will therefore accept our amendment. I beg to move.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I support the amendment. It is important and it spells out many of the factors I emphasised earlier about buildings and the various people living in them. On a lighter note, it so happens that in the village where I live two former farm properties are occupied by psychiatrists. It is therefore possible that the inspector will receive a shock if he knocks on the door!

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. The only objection I can see the Minister

22 Oct 2002 : Column 1319

raising is in relation to the lady who kept her sheep in the sitting room and barricaded them in. On the whole, householders ought to be allowed to have their privacy and the Human Rights Act allows them to have that. I support the noble Lord, Lord Plumb.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, the provisions under the clause are all subject to reasonableness and proportionate use. It would probably be regarded as disproportionate—although not in this House—to cull psychiatrists. The issue is not what the house is mainly used for; it is whether there are animals in it or whether there is a reasonable supposition that animals are in it. There is not just the odd example of sheep and goats being kept in the house; it occurs frequently because they are kept as pets or because people are trying to avoid the effects of the cull or access to vaccination or testing.

We therefore must provide the authorities with the ability to have access to any building where animals can reasonably be expected to have been kept. A blanket exclusion of dwelling houses and other non-agricultural buildings would inhibit that. Therefore I cannot accept the amendment as drafted.


Next Section Back to Table of Contents Lords Hansard Home Page