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Lord Plumb: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his reply. He has dealt with only one aspect of the matter. It could well be that 50 people are in the one dwelling and all are involved in different businesses. It could well be that they are in different buildings or even sharing buildings. Therefore, it is not a question of animals being in the houses. It is a question of people being in the houses, an inspector going in with a warrant and not knowing what his responsibilities are or who is allowed to move if disease breaks out on the farm.
We aired the matter fairly fully in Committee and I have raised it again today. I shall withdraw the amendment but we shall return to it at the next stage. In the event of another outbreak, it is a matter of great concern that we recognise the change in farming practice, the use of buildings and the number of people who are in them.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 25 to 29 not moved.]
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 30:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will notice that Amendment No. 30 stands in the names of myself and the noble Baronesses, Lady Byford and Lady Wilcox. That is because had the amendment been moved on the previous occasion I would have accepted it. This time I have made it clear beforehand that I intend to accept the amendment.
Amendment No. 30 seeks to remove the power to test for antibodies existing in animals which were kept on the premises during the period of 56 days prior to the day on which the veterinary inspector enters the premises. Having listened to earlier discussions, I accept that the amendment will clarify the power
needed. It will have two effects: it will remove the reference to the 56-day period and it will clarify that the power to carry out tests on samples for antibodies applies only to animals present on the premises at the time of the inspection. It is a useful clarification. I beg to move.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, when noble Lords saw the name of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, attached to my amendment they probably wondered what was going on. The Minister, quite properly, wrote to me and confirmed that he would have accepted my amendment on the previous occasion. I cannot think why we did not move it at the time, but that is a day gone by. I am grateful that he realised that, as it stood, the clause was not correct. He has added his name to the amendment, and that defect will now be rectified.
Is the Minister accepting my Amendment No. 31? It follows exactly the same argument and I assume that he will accept it.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I, too, am concerned about paragraph (b). How is an inspector to know whether an animal at any time was infected by disease? It is very difficult for him to detect. I support the noble Baroness's amendment.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I am advised that Amendment No. 31 would have a rather different effect. It would remove the power to test for disease in animals which were kept on premises or were at that time infected with a disease. That is rather different from Amendment No. 30, which deals with the time limit and the distinction between animals which were there and animals which were not. I am happy to clarify that with the noble Baroness. If necessary, we can return to the issue on Third Reading.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I had not appreciated that there were grounds for the Minister's concerns. To me it seems that the same logic behind Amendment No. 30 would apply to Amendment No. 31. I am grateful to the Minister for his indication that he will take the matter away and think about it, and perhaps come back on Third Reading to clarify the position.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 31 to 35 not moved.]
Lord Plumb moved Amendment No. 36:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the Minister seems to be in a good mood at the moment and I hope that he will accept at least one of my amendments.
If an inspector is going on to a farm to make tests or take samples, he is obviously going there for a purpose. When he arrives he will state that purpose"I need to take blood samples from your cows" or, say, as we are looking at all diseases and not only one disease, "I need to take blood samples from any animals liable to catch African horse sickness". The point we seek to make in Amendment No. 36 is that he should not be able to exploit a loophole in the law to use his visit to take
samples for a totally unrelated purpose. It is obvious that the Government sincerely believe that the position of farmers is somewhat obstructive. That is how farmers see it. They are terribly nervous at the moment, and terribly concerned, and they read it in the newspapers.Therefore, I am making the point to the Minister that one is concerned about the behaviour of officials following the last outbreak. It has led to a climate of suspicion and considerable fear in the countryside. I hear that regularly, as I am sure do many other noble Lords, from farmers and others. The important issue is that we should try to work together to ensure that everything that happens from now on is open, transparent and above boardand, above all, is seen to be so. I beg to move.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, as moved by the noble Lord, the amendment is difficult to resist. However, I am not in quite such a good mood. The word "specified" is open to some degree of ambiguity. Clearly, the inspector will have to go in and specify what range of animals is covered. The word could imply that he has to specify each animal. That would be difficult. Because of that ambiguity, I cannot accept the amendment.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I am sad to hear that. I rather felt that the Minister was coming all the way with me, and I was doing my best to persuade him that this was an amendment that he could accept. However, he has made his position absolutely clear. Therefore, in the circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I beg to move that consideration on Report be now adjourned.
Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.
Returned from the Commons agreed to with a privilege amendment; the amendment was considered and agreed to.
Reported from the Select Committee with amendments and a Special Report made; the Bill was re-committed to an Unopposed Bill Committee and it was ordered that the Special Report be printed.
Brought from the Commons, read a first time and referred to the Examiners.
Returned from the Commons agreed to with amendments; the amendments were considered and agreed to.
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