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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I understand what the noble Earl says. However, he will know that there are many people in our country who are similarly disadvantaged when they appear before the welfare benefit, social security and other tribunals. Many of them have difficulty with the language and face other disadvantages.
I reiterate to the noble Earl what I said: appellants will get legal assistance and advice prior to the hearing. That advice is available from solicitors and not-for-profit organisations, funded by the Legal Services Commission, who can assist people prior to their hearing. There is no legal representation for the hearing itself.
Lord Avebury: My Lords, I am not sure why that information could not have been given to the agencies when they wrote asking whether public funding would be available. It would have been simple to explain that public funding could be made available for those seeking advice prior to the hearing, even though they could not be represented at the hearing itself. That would have given some reassurance to those concerned with such matters.
The Minister has not really addressed the problem raised by the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Withdrawal of support and, therefore, appeals to the ASA are matters of human rights. The Government acknowledged that. However, I shall not persuade the Minister at this late hour. We shall consider what she said and, if necessary, come back to the matter at Third Reading. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 71A not moved.]
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 72 to 74:
- Page 90, line 5, at end insert—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, these are minor amendments which provide that Clauses 37 and 55 and paragraph 22 of Schedule 7 will be commenced on Royal Assent.
Amendment No. 72 enables Clause 37 local authorities to contract with us or our contractors in respect of accommodation centres. It is our intention to open trial accommodation centres as soon as possible, and we would not want this to be delayed by local authorities' inability to contract with us to provide, for example, services at accommodation centres.
Amendment No. 73 ensures that the amendments to Section 99 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 that Clause 55 of the present Bill makes can come into effect as soon as practicably possible. This will enable the local authorities, if they wish, to have early discussions with the national asylum support service about the provision of induction centre accommodation.
Amendment No. 74 is minor and consequential, re-numbering a reference from paragraph 16 of Schedule 7 to paragraph 22 of Schedule 7 in line with the numbering of clauses in the current draft Bill. I beg to move.
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Schedule 3 [Withholding and Withdrawal of Support]:
[Amendments Nos. 75 and 76 not moved.]
Earl Russell moved Amendment No. 77:
The noble Earl said: My Lords, Amendments Nos. 77 to 79 deal with Henry VIII powers arising in paragraph 15 of Schedule 3. The schedule authorises the withdrawal of various forms of mainly local authority support. It has to be defined in terms of persons and power. It is a list of persons who may not receive it and of types of support they may not receive.
Amendment No. 77 deals with persons. It removes the power to apply Schedule 3 to any new class of person. Amendment No. 78 changes the words "add or remove a provision"—that is, in relation to types of support—to "remove a provision". Therefore, the Government would be allowed to remove the ban in receiving a particular type of support but not to add a new type of support which may not be received.
Amendment No. 79, which is to leave our sub-paragraph (c) of paragraph 15, takes away the power to add, amend or remove a limitation or exception to paragraph 1(1).
The House will be familiar with my views on this method of legislation. It gives the Government what they like; that is, flexibility. But their flexibility is everyone else's inflexibility. These powers are extremely widely drafted. I recall, when dealing with a similar power, asking the Minister to admit that it authorised the Government in future circumstances to deprive all Welshman of the right to social security. The Minister duly made the admission because it was plain that that was the effect of the clause.
Anyone could be added to this clause, and under the powers in Amendment No. 77 the Government could say that everyone whose name began with the letter A was not to be entitled to all these forms of support. I think that that is a degree of flexibility greater than I hope the Government will claim is needed.
There may be many other forms of help, particularly under the mental health Acts, which it could be dangerous to deprive groups of people of, as well as disadvantageous and unfair to them. The power to add, amend or remove authorises the Government to dismantle most of the local authority social services
If there is anything that the Government genuinely particularly wish to do with these powers, maybe they will tell us what it is and draft the Bill so as to allow them to do what they want to do and not to allow every future Government of every future complexion to do whatever they like to do. That really would be a way to make Parliament redundant. I beg to move.
Lord Filkin: My Lords, what the Government want to do with this amendment is essentially to achieve what the whole benefit shopping measures in the Bill set out to do—which, as the House knows, is essentially to protect local authorities from burdens or obligations in terms of providing support in the particular examples we have talked about in the past on numerous occasions.
Schedule 3 is a complex area of law in what is an ever-evolving area—and paragraph 15 provides the flexibility to allow it to operate flexibly.
An illustration of why the power is necessary is given by the further amendment that we have to bring in as a result of the legal case—I speak from memory—where Bristol City Council was found as a result of a court judgment to have been placed under a burden to respond to that court judgment when it believed that it ought to have had no obligation to do so. As a consequence, we had to bring in further amendment to do that. We had not spotted that particular issue at the time. It is quite plausible that there will be other issues of that type that it is not possible to spot at this time, but which will require action to achieve the objective which Schedule 3 has been drafted to address.
However, because these are powers of potential significance, albeit that they may never be used—we do not know how often they would be used—the affirmative procedure will have to be used to put the measure relating to them through both your Lordships' House and another place. Therefore, in short, it is entirely possible that new classes of person may emerge in the future to whom it is right to apply Schedule 3. It is also possible that other forms of support or assistance might need to be withheld. If the whole of paragraph 15(c) were removed, an extra exception—an addition—in paragraph 2 could not be made except by primary legislation.
For the reasons that I have advanced and with the protections which are clear through the affirmative procedure, we believe that it is right that the
Earl Russell: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. I have heard it before. I am afraid that he has heard my reply before too and I will try to make it as brief as possible. First, does the Minister accept that these clauses may be used in future to do things which he would deplore as much as I would? I ask him genuinely to think about that question before he responds to it.
Secondly, does he accept that the affirmative resolution is absolutely no protection until it is widely recognised that this House is free to vote on it when it has it? And thirdly, perhaps I may remind him, with the greatest brevity, of the information that I have already put before him about the Eurostat figures on benefit levels and the Home Office research on the effect on welfare benefits on applications. I am sorry to hear him yet again repeat this argument about benefit shopping. It simply does not stand up to the evidence. But I am not going to divide the House at a quarter past twelve. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment but the questions are ones the House will hear again.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendments Nos. 78 and 79 not moved.]
Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendment No. 80:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, there are 28 amendments in the group. I have a lengthy speaking note, which I am happy to go through if your Lordships so require, but, given the hour, a brief outline of the amendments may suffice.
Amendment No. 80 is a minor and technical amendment. Amendments Nos. 81 to 100 are consequential amendments; they are minor, technical and drafting amendments. Amendments Nos. 102 to 107 relate to provisions that are repealed elsewhere in the Bill and so appear in the repeal schedule. For example, Amendment No. 106 simply changes references inserted by the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 to references to the Bill. I suggest that it is not necessary for me to go into the amendments at greater length. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Schedule 7 [Immigration and Asylum Appeals: Consequential Amendments]:
"( ) section 37,"
Page 90, line 12, at end insert—
"( ) section 55,"
Page 90, line 18, leave out "16" and insert "22"
Page 100, line 17, leave out "to apply or"
12.15 a.m.
Page 101, line 19, leave out "116(4)(c)" and insert "128(4)(d)"
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