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Earl Russell: My Lords, as the Minister says, the amendment is technical. I shall read it again so that he can be in no doubt about what it says. The Government,

"must provide a resident of an accommodation centre with access to legal or appropriate advice from suitably qualified advisors".

Speaking with Pepper v Hart in mind, I understand "appropriate" in a legal context to mean somebody with competence in asylum law and not merely immigration law. In other matters, "appropriate" would mean appropriate to the matter on which advice was being sought.

I am most grateful to the Minister for his undertaking to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, even at this late stage, to consider the criminal test of proof when it becomes relevant. I would much rather spend 20 years in a British prison than one year in an Iraqi prison. So the sorts of risk which the applicant is facing are the sorts which I think are more appropriate to the criminal test. However, these questions do not actually bite on the amendment as currently worded; they bite on representation at a hearing. We are dealing here with preliminary advice, and I am advised that the merits test does not apply at that stage. All these questions are beside the point of this amendment.

So indeed I think of the fear of the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, about people shopping around for one lawyer after another. All the amendment says is that people must have access to legal advice. It does not say that they have to have access to every form of legal advice anywhere in the country. That is, of course, a right that every British citizen has, but it is not one that this amendment is asking for. So I think that those reflections were wide of the point.

In the end, there is one major difference between us, and that is on the issue of "may" versus "must". This Government are very keen on laying responsibilities on others; they are not so keen to shoulder them themselves. The Government should not get away with

31 Oct 2002 : Column 336

the idea that they are the only body in the country who are entitled to flexibility. I should like to ask the opinion of the House.

The Deputy Speaker (Lord Brougham and Vaux): My Lords, before the noble Earl presses Amendment No. 9, the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, must decide what to do with Amendment No. 9A.

Lord Clinton-Davis: My Lords, I have moved the amendment.

The Deputy Speaker: My Lords, the Question is that Amendment No. 9A, as an amendment to Amendment No. 9, shall be agreed to. As many of that opinion will say, "Content"; to the contrary, "Not-Content". I think the "Contents" have it. Clear the Bar.

Division called.

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Irvine of Lairg): My Lords, Tellers for the "Contents" have not been appointed pursuant to Standing Order 53. A Division therefore cannot take place, and I declare that the "Not-Contents" have it.

Amendment negatived.

6.22 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 9) shall be agreed to?

*Their Lordships divided: Contents, 147; Not-Contents, 103.

Division No. 3

CONTENTS
Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Greaves, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Guildford, Bp.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Joffe, L.
Jopling, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L. [Teller]
Smith of Clifton, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Wolfson, L.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Monson, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

[*The Tellers for the Contents reported 147 votes. The Clerks recorded 146 names.] Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

31 Oct 2002 : Column 338

6.37 p.m.

Clause 29 [Conditions of residence]:

Lord Bassam of Brighton moved Amendments Nos. 10 to 12:

Page 16, line 1, leave out "under" and insert "by virtue of"

Page 16, line 7, leave out "under" and insert "by virtue of"

Page 16, line 13, leave out second "condition" and insert "restriction"

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Clause 30 [Financial contribution by resident]:

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