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Lord Greaves moved Amendment No. 1:
- Page 2, line 5, at end insert—
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this amendment, which is in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth, is a part of an amendment that we tabled on Report. Its purpose is to clarify the Secretary of State's powers to enforce vaccination—whether a firebreak or other type of preventive vaccination—during a foot and mouth outbreak. What powers does the Secretary of State have under current legislation to enforce such vaccination? The Minister did not satisfactorily deal with that point on Report. He simply said that, in his view, the Secretary of State has such powers. He did not clarify those powers or say where they are provided in legislation.
The only powers for compulsory vaccination that I have been able to locate are found in Section 16(1) of the Animal Health Act 1981. That provision states:
During the recent foot and mouth outbreak, the Government consistently said that there were slaughter powers which enabled contiguous culls, firebreak culls and so on. Nevertheless, they have accepted that there is some ambiguity in the matter. Consequently, they are proposing this legislation to provide them with the powers that they believe they need.
Those vaccination powers seem very similar to the slaughter powers also provided in the 1981 Act—although the former include the interesting phrase,
It would be helpful if the Minister clearly stated where those powers exist. Without them, the approach that pretty well all noble Lords want to be carried out to a future outbreak—that is, the use of vaccination rather than slaughter as a first-preference option—would appear to be impossible. I beg to move.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, and the principle that prevention is better than cure; in this case, the cure is a cut throat. I should much prefer the use of widespread vaccination as a preventive measure. I, too, have looked through the Bill but can see nothing that covers the "buffer zone" principle. I look forward to the Minister's explanation.
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord Whitty): My Lords, I hope that I can clarify the situation to the noble Lord's satisfaction. As I said on Report, we do not need to clarify the powers in relation to vaccination as we are required to clarify—and extend—the powers relating to slaughter, so as to provide the Government with all options in preventing the spread of a disease. The noble Lord drew attention to the powers in Section 16(1) of the 1981 Act. The difficulty to which he referred is that the provision covers vaccination in an infected area, which is a wider power than those relating to slaughter. In the event of an outbreak, an infected area will include any or all of the country that is designated a controlled area. In the foot and mouth epidemic, all of the United Kingdom was at one point designated a controlled area. The provision gives one plenty of scope to run a preventive vaccination campaign without amending the Act.
The issue of priority and preference is not dealt with in the noble Lord's amendment or the existing powers. The powers to vaccinate already exist. They are available in relation to whichever part of the country is designated a controlled area. In the recent epidemic,
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, before the noble Lord concludes, will he clarify the difference between an infected and a controlled area? During the foot and mouth outbreak, our farm at home was in an infected area and our movements were restricted for a very long period. However, an area a few hundred yards up the road from us was not designated an infected area. I understand that it was in a controlled area; in other words, there were some controls. Is there not a difference between an infected area and a controlled area? The Act refers to an infected area.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the designation "infected area" in the 1981 Act refers to any area that is designated as being subject to controls. During the previous outbreak, the whole country was an area that was subject to controls. The infected area in the immediate ring round where disease was found was subject to a certain degree of controls; other areas at various stages of the disease were subject to different forms of control. The whole country was affected by controls and therefore fell within the designation. That is the distinction between this provision and that relating to slaughter in the 1981 Act.
Lord Greaves: My Lords, it is unusual for those on the Opposition Benches to try to give Ministers more power and for Ministers to resist and say that they do not need them. Having the Minister's clarification in black and white is useful. I still have some doubts about whether what he said is adequate and whether that approach would be adequate in an outbreak if it were subject to legal challenge. However, for the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 4 [Explanation of preventive slaughter]:
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 2:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, I hope that this a sign of things to come. On Report, the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, proposed an amendment about the need to explain why, in particular circumstances, vaccination was not being used. I said then that I accepted the principle of that amendment but that I should bring forward another amendment on Third Reading. This amendment sets out clearly that the Secretary of State must, when publishing her reasons for using the preventive slaughter power, also set out the reasons for not using vaccination. I believe that that meets the objective of the noble Lord's previous amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I thank the Minister for this amendment but I seek clarification on a couple of
Lord Greaves: My Lords, I do apologise; my attention was being distracted by my noble friend Lady Harris of Richmond. I apologise to the House on her behalf and mine.
I thank the Minister for the amendment, which is very much along the lines that were promised on Report.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, is that because much of the Bill amends the 1981 Act, the reference to Section 16 is to that section of that Act, which relates to vaccination. It does not relate to Clause 16, which relates to the contingency plan.
Lord Campbell of Alloway: My Lords, I read the provision as in no way affecting the relationship between Clause 1(3) and Clause 1(1); in other words, the priority—the amendment of the noble Countess was about the priority—is not detrimentally affected by the clause. Am I right? If I am not, I should like to come back at a later stage.
"(5) In section 16(1) of the Animal Health Act 1981 (c. 22) (treatment and exposure to infection) after paragraph (c) insert "; or
(d) which the Secretary of State thinks should be treated in order to create a buffer zone to prevent the spread of foot-and-mouth disease.""
"For the purpose of preventing the spread of disease, the Ministers may cause to be treated with serum or vaccine, or with both serum and vaccine, any animal or bird"—
obviously referring to diseases other than foot and mouth—
"(a) which has been in contact with a diseased animal ...
(b) which appears to the Ministers to be or to have been in any way exposed to the infection of disease ...
(c) which is in an infected area".
"which is in an infected area".
It appears that there is still ambiguity about what an infected area is. In relation to a preventive vaccination programme that the Government were enforcing in a zone around, or perhaps in a region of the country near to, an outbreak of foot and mouth disease, it would be open to people resisting compulsory vaccination to argue that they were not in the infected area.
3.15 p.m.
Page 4, line 15, leave out "for the exercise of the power"
"if the court was uneasy for whatever reason about the declaration of certification, and believed that it had been made in bad faith, it would be able to consider the evidence behind that, irrespective of whether or not it had been deemed conclusive proof. In other words, if there were sufficient doubts, the court could re-open the matter".—[Official Report, 29/10/02; col. 129.]
Having reflected on the ramifications of that statement, I now look behind everything that the Government have tabled today for the hidden meaning. That is of course our responsibility as a revising Chamber. However, the Bill refers to "section 16". Will the Minister confirm that that involves Clause 16, which is about the national contingency plan? Should not the amendment therefore refer more specifically to the relevant subsection—perhaps to subsection (3)?
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