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Lord Plumb: My Lords, can the Minister say what the situation is in other countries? It is a matter of concern.

Lord Whitty: My Lords, there are no movement restrictions of that sort in other EU countries, except on intra-Community trade, for which there are restrictions on moving animals across borders. There is a requirement to wait for, in most cases, 28 days. In other countries in which there has recently been disease, there are movement restrictions, although they are not the equivalent of the 20-day standstill.

Your Lordships must recognise that the rapidity of movements in the sheep trade in this country is almost unique. There is a particular problem with the 20-day standstill in this country. However, that is not my main argument against the amendment. My argument is that the eight-week period would damage our international position.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, in summing up the debate on the amendment, I shall make several points. First, the noble Lord, Lord Carter, spoke correctly about the 21-day infection cycle. I agree with him. Like the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, I thought that it was an excellent thing when it was introduced. The problem is that time moves on. The noble Lord, Lord Carter, mentioned the activities of dealers. I know them well. Perhaps we should legislate for dealers. The 20-day rule has an impact equivalent to closing part of

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the Stock Exchange down for nearly 12 months. If we blackballed some of the dealers in the Stock Exchange, we would hear about it within 24 hours, not nine months.

It is normal trading. We depend on the market. The new Labour Government proclaim the market-place. However, there is a risk in the market-place; there have been huge risks in the Stock Exchange in the past six to 12 months. There have also, in another sense, been risks in the livestock market. If we are to rely on a market price, the market must be able to trade under normal conditions. We cannot have one and not the other.

The noble Earl, Lord Peel, and the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, made supportive speeches, and I believe that they fully understand the seriousness of the present situation. The noble Baroness, Lady Mallalieu, and the noble Countess, Lady Mar, stated clearly the difficulties with the movement of lambs or cattle. In a farming community, those are normal, everyday events. Lambs and calves must be moved around. If a farmer has a cow whose calf has died, he must quickly find another one. It would be extraordinary if bringing in that other calf caused all activities to be suspended for 20 days, even though the farmer had 200 lambs to sell the next Friday.

The noble Baroness, Lady Gibson of Market Rasen, asked why it should be eight weeks. The Minister tacitly admitted that a risk assessment could be done in that time, when he said that there had been a delay in DEFRA. I would ask, "Why nine months until now?". There is still a 20-day rule in place.

The noble Lord, Lord Plumb, mentioned the movement of sheep flocks and the increased cost to the farming community caused by the delay. As I was not wealthy enough to be a farmer's son, I started life in the agriculture industry as a drover. At the age of 10, I was involved in the moving of sheep from the local market. I hate to think what the Welsh drovers of the nineteenth century would have said about some of the current rules, had they applied when they were trying to get cattle to Northamptonshire, Kent and the rest of the United Kingdom. Times have moved on; they have moved on too far, if we are talking about the restrictions that have been put in place.

We do not know what parameters will be used for the risk assessment. We know that there will be a cost benefit analysis, and we know that imports will also feature in the risk assessment. The Minister rightly mentioned the rapidity of spread and the incubation period, as did the noble Lord, Lord Carter. That is the case at the height of an outbreak. However, it is now over 12 months since the last case of foot and mouth disease. The Scots may have a different system of isolation, but, as the Minister said, better import controls would help. We must act on both fronts. It is possible to carry out a risk assessment within eight weeks, and we must lift the 20-day rule after a future spread. We are wiser than we were: we have had the Lessons to be Learned report and the Royal Society report. We can start to use those reports to create

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foolproof preventive measures that make sense in the market-place, as well as from a biosecurity point of view.

I have not said that it is not possible to have a period of fewer than 20 days in certain circumstances following an outbreak, if that is the Government's wish. It would be an advantage to run a 20-day restriction for two months, so that we could trade for, at least, one month, before getting EU clearance. The amendment would underwrite that for such a situation. It is not reckless. We have learnt from our terrible experiences of 2001, and we cannot put on the farming community again the sort of restrictions that are on them now. Therefore, I seek the opinion of the House on the amendment.

4 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 165; Not-Contents, 128.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chorley, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Richmond, B. [Teller]
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L. [Teller]
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Moran, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Oxfuird, V.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Slim, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Fitt, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

4 Nov 2002 : Column 497

4.11 p.m.

Clause 7 [Treatment: power of entry]:

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