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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, this is a logical set of amendments that tidy up the provisions on other diseases. They affect the person in charge of the animals and incorporate requests for assistance by the inspector in the circumstances described by the noble Lord, Lord Plumb. The amendments are right and proper. I see no reason not to support them and I have much pleasure in doing so.
Lord Jopling: My Lords, I raised this issue on the first day of Report stage when I drew the attention of
the House to the fact that the provisions could include people who kept dogs, cats and fish. The Minister said that,
- "we were working on the basis of the Animal Health Act 1981 in which animals are defined as animals being susceptible to the disease. That does not include horses, fish or dogs".—[Official Report, 22/10/02; col. 1316.]
Lord Peyton of Yeovil: My Lords, throughout the passage of the Bill the Minister has being singing the song, "If we'd only had the powers we're now asking for, there wouldn't have been any trouble last time, or the trouble would have been cut down". It came to my attention not long ago that in Devon a small number of alpacas had been slaughtered, despite the fact that, I understand, there has never been a case of an alpaca being infected with foot and mouth in this country. That seems an extreme case, but it increases people's anxiety considerably. They do not want it to happen again.
I do not want to be boring or to go on at length, but my fear is that in our procedures Ministers find themselves becoming ever more in loco parentis to a Bill. It is almost like adopting a child. They get to love the thing. I am glad that the Minister laughs. I agree that it is ridiculous that Ministers should get to love their Bills, but they certainly defend them line by line. Equally, oppositions get to hate Bills. I hope that the Minister will relax on this occasion and disregard the word "Reject" that is probably written at the bottom of his brief. It is very unhelpful. I am sure that accepting this modest amendment would be a valuable step forward.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, although I have supported the Minister against the Opposition in the past, I support this amendment. The noble Lord, Lord Jopling, might be relieved to know that the 1981 Act specifically excludes fish, reptiles and crustaceans from the power to extend the definition of "animals". His fish are still safe in the goldfish pond. However, I support the amendments, which are rational and reasonable.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I have two or three assurances for the noble Lord, Lord Peyton. I have never said that everything would have been all right had we had the powers in the Bill. I have said that these powers would have been useful in certain aspects of the control of the disease and could have been effective in controlling the spread of the disease. Various disease control issues need to be addressed; this is one of them.
Nor do I think I have ever given the impression that I am in love with the Bill. If that is the case, it must be a peculiar form of love. I would love not to need these powers. I greatly hope that none of my successors in the department ever has to use them. However, were we to be in that unfortunate situation, the powers would be necessary. My flexibility is therefore more limited than the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, desires. I also have to tell him that camelids, which include alpacas, are susceptible to foot and mouth. It was therefore not outwith the susceptibility criteria that they were slaughtered.
Despite what the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, said, these amendments are not a logical grouping. Amendment No. 8 relates to powers relating to vaccination, but the other three—Amendments Nos. 14, 19 and 37—do not. It is therefore not logical for them to refer to Section 16 of the 1981 Act. Amendments Nos. 14 and 19 should refer to Section 62 and Amendment No. 37 should refer to Part II of the 1981 Act, not to Section 16. Whatever we do about Amendment No. 8, the others in the group are misplaced.
Amendment No. 8 relates to whether animals are susceptible. The definition of "susceptible" exists in the 1981 Act. That cannot be extended beyond the area to which that Act applies except by resolution in respect of a particular disease to which other animals may be susceptible. If an inspector was coming to a premises, the only animals that could be affected by the vaccination proceeding would be those susceptible to the disease for which the visit was proposed. That might cover a different range of animals from those susceptible to foot and mouth.
On every occasion that we have debated these provisions, we have said that assistance must be reasonably required. In various amendments, we have also defined those of whom assistance can be required: occupiers, those in charge of animals, and those who are working for them. I think that to go further and appear to restrict those requirements beyond that would be to create an ambiguous definition of those in charge of animals. I therefore cannot accept Amendment No. 8. I think that the other amendments are inappropriate for the reasons that I have explained.
Lord Plumb: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that response, which was not entirely unexpected. On various occasions he has referred to the importance of flexibility and told us that there is no intention of building into the legislation the degree of compulsion that many of us seemed to be reading into it. As my noble friend Lord Peyton has quite rightly said, however, the ultimate concern is that the Bill seems to make demands that those affected could regard as promoting the nanny state. Although those making the demands have no responsibility themselves, they seem to be saying that they know exactly how to deal with the particular problem. However, the Minister has made the position clear. I thank those who supported Amendment No. 8. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Whitty moved Amendment No. 9:
- Page 6, line 36, leave out from "date" to end of line 37 and insert "specified in the warrant as the date of its issue"
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the House will recall that, on Report, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, moved an amendment which was very similar to her Amendments Nos. 13, 18 and 36 on today's Marshalled List requiring magistrates to put a date on the warrant. It is clearly necessary that whatever is stated in relation to this warrant procedure should be consistent throughout the Bill. I have therefore taken further legal advice on how that should be done. Although the noble Baroness's amendments are in a later group, I understand that she has agreed that, for convenience, we can take them with this group.
My legal advice is that the form of the amendment that I have tabled—which is consistent at all points where the warrant procedure applies—is the most legally appropriate form. My amendment also has the same effect as the noble Baroness's amendments and will avoid any disputes or ambiguity in the warrant process. Although I shall listen to her remarks, my legal advice is strongly that our form of words is the appropriate one to meet the objectives which she has set out. I beg to move.
5.15 p.m.
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for moving his Amendment No. 9, speaking to his subsequent amendments and referring to my Amendment No. 13—which, on Report, was my Amendment No. 23. As noble Lords may recall, we debated my Amendment No. 23 very late in our consideration on Report, and it was intended to add the words that I have included in amendments on today's Marshalled List. In replying to that debate, the Minister said that he could see no reason why he could not accept this rationally argued amendment. We therefore face two problems, the first of which is that the Government have accepted my Amendment No. 23. As I understand it, as they have accepted the amendment and it has been accepted by the House, they cannot alter it. Noble Lords should be aware of that fact.
Secondly, and this is my fault, in moving Amendment No. 23, I failed to deal with subsequent amendments—Amendments Nos. 28, 35 and 54—which were relevant at that stage. I am therefore left with a slight difficulty, and the Minister and I are trying to agree on how to proceed. I gather that he is not able to alter my Amendment No. 23, although he could challenge my three other amendments which I did not formally record as consequential to it. Those amendments were not consequentially agreed to.
The Minister says that his legal advisers tell him that his wording is legally more acceptable than mine and that there is very little difference between our two versions. I think that there is a difference. Our debate on Report was short, but it was purposeful. I also specifically pointed out that we had debated the same subject in Committee, where the issue of whether the warrants were pre-signed was again raised. However, I do not want to revisit that issue.
If the Minister wishes to press his amendments, I shall oppose them. My response, however, will hinge on the Government's response to my Amendment No. 13 and subsequent amendments. Nevertheless, regardless of how the Government respond to my other amendments, Amendment No. 13 must stand. My understanding is that the Government cannot alter it. Perhaps the Minister can clarify the point for the benefit of the House.
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