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The Countess of Mar moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 20, Amendment No. 21:

Line 13, after "those" insert "listed in section 6B(5)"

The noble Countess said: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for saying which amendments he is prepared to accept. I ask him to forgive my rather feeble voice. It is the result of being vaccinated; never again.

Lord Carter: My Lords, to live?

The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I do not feel very much like it at the moment, to be quite candid!

Noble Lords will recall that I tabled an amendment on Report, which was mentioned by the Minister. When he promised to take my amendment away and to come back with a similar one, I expected that it would bear some semblance to mine. Who was it on television who used to say, "I don't believe it!"? That is what I felt when I first read the Minister's amendments.

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After all our discussions during the somewhat painful passage of the Bill through its stages in this House, noble Lords will, I believe, agree that the importance of biosecurity has been stressed repeatedly. The Minister mentioned it today on a number of occasions. It has taken this long for the Government to produce a loosely worded amendment—one that fails to meet the needs of the argument. There is now no need for me to dwell on the amendments at length. They are, in the main, tweaking amendments.

The Minister did not mention Amendment No. 21. It specifies those who should be consulted in the drafting of the biosecurity guidance. Last week, I had no inkling that there would be today's press announcement and radio coverage of the formation of a new organisation, called "Farm". I was merely expressing my own dissatisfaction with the Government's apparent dependence on one or two organisations, with apparently large memberships, which I believe provide wonderful insurance and legal advice but which fail dismally to represent all but a minority of their members. If the Minister "thinks" that the NFU and the NSA—the two organisations that he has cited most—are representative of persons and organisations that should be consulted, I ask him to think again. Seventy per cent of farmers apparently do not believe that their interests are currently being represented. With modern communications, that need not be an expensive exercise. Not everyone contacted will respond, but they should be given the opportunity to comment. Indeed, the Minister may be surprised by the amount of constructive assistance that might be forthcoming. The list merely helps the Secretary of State to think.

The Minister said that he was minded to accept Amendment No. 22. I have had bitter experience of the publication of,

"guidance in such manner as he thinks appropriate",

from guidance note MS17 by the Health and Safety Executive on organophosphate poisoning. Noble Lords who have been in the House for a long time will remember that I have asked a number of questions about MS17. It is all too easy for government publications to gather dust on a shelf somewhere. I want to see on the face of the Bill the Government's stated intention that never again will we see such events as occurred during the recent epidemic of foot and mouth disease. Every registered individual concerned with keeping or handling animals must have the requisite biosecurity information. If there is to be certainty of distribution, that information can only be supplied centrally. It is then up to the individuals who receive the guidance to read and follow it. Penalties obviously follow if they do not.

I am pleased that the Minister is prepared to accept Amendment No. 23. Amendment No. 24 relates to new Section 6A(10). That is retrospective legislation and he should know that we do not accept such legislation in your Lordships' House. I shall press that amendment.

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Amendment No. 25 goes with Amendment No. 22. How is a person to know about biosecurity if he has not seen the guidance?

The Minister's amendment to new Section 6B(3) contains a remarkable provision. How does that fit in with Clause 12(1)? That states:

"A person commits an offence if without lawful authority or excuse (proof of which shall lie with him) he knowingly does anything"—

I stress that word—

"which causes or is intended to cause an animal to be infected".

After all that has been said, are we now to let off the hook those who disregard biosecurity measures? My amendment would restore the situation to its previous state.

Amendments Nos. 27 and 28 extend the list of those who should be consulted and receive guidance. Such people are all concerned with animals. Those whom I have added have temporary concerns and may not be remembered. Amendment No. 30 is self-explanatory and follows from our debate on Report. Having said that, and having run out of puff, I beg to move.

5.30 p.m.

Lord Livsey of Talgarth: My Lords, I support the amendments referred to by the noble Countess, Lady Mar. I believe that they add flesh to the biosecurity compliance part of the new clause inserted by the Minister's amendment. Indeed, I believe it is important to spell out who will be involved and who will be consulted. We must ensure that guidance is in place for all the people involved in the chain of animal production so that they know what the rules are. That is most important.

In previous debates, many of us were critical of the lack of control in situations where contractors who carried out certain work did not seem to adhere to sensible biosecurity. I consider the list of consultees to be reasonable. I am sure that, when they are armed with the information, they will attempt to comply with it. I am sure that naming people or organisations will assist in ensuring that compliance is carried out more effectively.

Baroness Byford: My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for coming forward with his amendment, which, although long, is not sufficiently detailed. I believe that the noble Countess, Lady Mar, should be congratulated on bringing forward the amendments to which she spoke earlier. I am glad that the Minister has indicated that he will accept her Amendments Nos. 22 and 23. Obviously I hope that he will also accept Amendment No. 25, which, as the noble Countess, said, is linked directly to Amendment No. 22.

During the last outbreak of foot and mouth disease, it was obvious that different advice was being given at different times to different people. While we support the Government's amendment, which gives greater guidance to a whole range of people, I believe that the amendment tabled by the noble Countess, Lady Mar, is far more specific. We believe it is our bounden duty

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to ensure that people who are legitimately trading when outbreaks occur have full knowledge of what is required of them. They should not be able to say, "Well, we didn't know". That, importantly, is what the amendment seeks to achieve.

During the recent outbreak, there was undoubtedly much uncertainty as to the best way to proceed. Different advice was given by DEFRA staff in different offices. In some ways, I cannot blame them, although, in others, we do so strongly. At times, when supplies of, for example, the best disinfectants ran out, there was misinformation about the most effective substitutes. Farmers sought advice and were told or sold what was available rather than what might have been preferred. If farmers had information in the first instance, then they would have only themselves to blame if they chose wrongly.

Therefore, I welcome the Government's amendment and thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, because much thought has obviously gone into it. However, our view is that it is good so far as it goes but that it needs the additional amendments which the noble Countess, Lady Mar, has tabled today. In our earlier debates, the Minister said that he recognised that several times during the passage of the Bill concerns had been raised about the fact that DEFRA officials did not appear to be subject to the same requirements and movements as others.

I believe that the amendments of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, add enormously to Amendment No. 20. I hope that, in responding, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will be able to consider including some of the other amendments tabled by the noble Countess. I shall be interested to hear why he is not able to accept some of them. He said that he did not consider them to be necessary.

Lord Carter: My Lords, when he moved Amendment No. 20, my noble friend the Minister said that, even though he could accept Amendment No. 22, he believed that it would be restrictive. It strikes me as odd when I read it. Subsection (2)(a) of Amendment No. 20 states that the Secretary of State must send the draft guidance to,

"such persons and organisations as he thinks are representative of those having an interest in biosecurity measures"—

that is, anyone. It includes vets, scientists, farmers, members of the NFU and whoever. But, when we add Amendment No. 22 in the name of the noble Countess to the list of those to whom the guidance is distributed, it includes only,

"registered owners and keepers of animals, registered animal hauliers, and any owner or manager of a registered slaughterhouse or slaughtering premises".

Perhaps I am not reading the amendment correctly, but it seems that all those organisations are consulted on the draft guidance but then, when the guidance is completed and is ready to be published, it is sent only to the people listed in Amendment No. 22. That does not seem to be logical.

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