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The Countess of Mar: My Lords, with the leave of the House, perhaps I may explain to the noble Lord,
Lord Carter, that, during the recent outbreak, those people had difficulty enough in knowing what the word "biosecurity" meant, let alone what the biosecurity measures were. Those are the people who need to be specifically targeted. If the Minister wishes to send the guidance to other people, there is nothing to stop him. I simply want to ensure that those people receive the information.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, in respect of the point to which several of the amendments relate, Amendment No. 21 refers to those listed in new Section 6B(5). That does not include some of the people to whom my noble friend Lord Carter referred but it would be sensible to distribute the guidance to them. I do not believe that the guidance should be restricted to those listed in the amendment.
With regard to Amendment No. 22, the noble Countess raises a valid point in relation to those who felt that they were excluded from the information circulated during the course of, and following, the recent epidemic. Therefore, there is an argument for including specific reference to them. However, there is also the danger, of which we must always remind the House when we discuss lists, that, in specifying certain people, it is possible that others will be excluded.
On balance, I believe that there may be an argument for including them, and I shall not resist that if the noble Countess wishes to press it. But she must recognise that, in doing so, she will exclude others. That becomes more acute when we relate the issue to Amendment No. 27, which effectively lists the same sort of people. The effect of that would be to include those at that part of the Bill but not others. I believe that that would be more damaging in terms of restriction of future interpretation than the list of people to whom the guidance would have to be circulated.
As I indicated, I accept the arguments in relation to Amendment No. 23 and I can agree to the amendment. The noble Countess referred to Amendment No. 24 as being "retrospective". It is not; it merely states that we should be able to use work on biosecurity that has already been carried out. It does not make retrospective any action against or towards people. That will only be prospective from the passage of the Act. But it refers to the need or desirability to take into account valuable work which has already been done and which, otherwise, would be wasted. I do not believe that the accusation of retrospection is appropriate. It relates to the work and not to the effect of the Act.
So far as concerns Amendment No. 25, again, I believe it is important that we do not restrict distribution to those listed. That would create an even greater restriction than referring to new Section 6B(5) in the earlier clause.
Amendment No. 26 seeks to remove from the biosecurity amendment the provision which confirms that if a person fails to comply with the guidance he is not, by reason solely of that failure, liable in any civil or criminal proceedings.
I was careful in moving Amendment No. 20. I indicated that the normal practice is to make the existence and adhesion or non-adhesion to the codes of practice admissible in a court of law. That is the normal way that we translate codes of practice into being effective in court proceedings. That is an important part of making sure that people take notice of this biosecurity practice. Those people include the officials of DEFRA or other government departments and those contractors and others working on their behalf. I think therefore that the purpose of the amendments of the noble Baroness, and indeed her subsequent Amendment No. 30, is met by Amendment No. 20 as it stands.
I have referred to Amendments Nos. 27 and 28. A possible interpretation that this was a restriction to those listed in the amendments could be quite damaging because other people should be included at a subsequent stage. I would therefore resist that, not because I do not want to make sure that such people are included under this clause but because it could limit the Secretary of State's ability to include others.
Can I clarify whether the noble Baroness referred to Amendment No. 30?
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, before the noble Lord goes on, I should be grateful if he would call me the noble Countess rather than the noble Baroness. I know that I am the only one in the House. I do have to keep reminding him. I did speak to Amendment No. 30.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I apologise. Amendment No. 30 is intended to make sure that everyone follows the guidance. It is not an amendment which we would be able to enforce in primary legislation. There is no method by which the Secretary of State could ensure absolutely that the guidance is followed by everyone.
The amendment provides the objective, but gives no sanction should the agents of the Secretary of State fail to comply. Therefore, it is incomplete in itself. In any case, the requirement in the amendment that I propose—that the terms of the code of practice would be admissible in court, and the failure to adhere to those terms would be admissible in court—provides that degree of control over the actions of the servants or contractors of the Secretary of State. It therefore follows that they must have regard to it and that that would be admissible in the case brought against them by anyone who had a complaint about the way they carried out that action.
I therefore can accept, if the noble Countess presses it, Amendment No. 22. I accept with a light heart Amendment No. 23. But I resist the remainder of the amendments of the noble Countess. I apologise unreservedly for failing to call her the noble Countess at various points in my response. I shall try my best to avoid that mistake again.
The Countess of Mar: My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord. Perhaps he would appreciate being called the Secretary of State when he is not.
I still feel that we need to expand the list in proposed new Section 6B(5). It is already an extensive list. I have added groups of people who are likely to be forgotten. They do not have permanent care of animals. They are kind of will-o'-the-wisps: they pass in the night. I think they should be added to the list. Therefore, I wish to test the opinion of the House.
5.45 p.m.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 21) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 167; Not-Contents, 139.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Boardman, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Cuckney, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Fookes, B.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jenkins of Hillhead, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lindsay, E.
Liverpool, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C. [Teller]
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Moran, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northover, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L. [Teller]
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Waddington, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Islwyn, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Moser, L.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Resolved in the affirmative, and Amendment No. 21, as an amendment to Amendment No. 20, agreed to accordingly.
5.55 p.m.
The Countess of Mar moved, as amendments to Amendment No. 20, Amendments Nos. 22 and 23:
- Line 19, at end insert "and distribute it to registered owners and keepers of animals, registered animal hauliers, and any owner or manager of a registered slaughterhouse or slaughtering premises"
- Line 26, at end insert "provided that, in such a case, he includes in the guidance an explanation of why this was necessary"
On Question, amendments agreed to.
[Amendment No. 24, as an amendment to Amendment No. 20, not moved.]
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