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Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, before the noble and learned Lord sits down, perhaps I may ask him for an explanation. He has carefully explained what he describes as a difference of philosophy on a matter of operational independence between the view I have expressed and the view expressed in the Patten report. If the view expressed in the Patten report is relied upon as justifying the amendment we are discussing, why was that view not taken in 2000 when the Act was passed? What has made it necessary now?

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, that is a perfectly legitimate question. At that stage, it was thought that ground four ought to be included. Since then, at least two things have happened. First, there has been the experience of the Chief Constable working with the board. Secondly, the implementation report came to the conclusion that ground four was not required. As the noble and learned Lord said, when we made our response to the implementation plan, which was post the 2000 Act, the Government gave the commitment which they are now honouring in this Bill.

Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for his explanations and I thank noble Lords for taking part in the debate. My noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew made a reasoned argument and the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, who has considerable experience working on the Policing Board, has explained his views and fears.

The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, made some political points which I do not necessarily accept or agree with. I agree with the noble and learned Lord the Lord Privy Seal that this is not a Bill entirely for Sinn Fein. Many parts of it are practical, sensible and good and are well supported by the Policing Board and by the Chief Constable. I met the Chief Constable as recently as Monday, but on the understanding with him that I would not repeat anything we discussed. I shall say no more on the matter, if your Lordships will forgive me.

23 Jan 2003 : Column 862

There is a slightly different philosophical approach. I am surprised that it is coming from Her Majesty's Government, particularly in the light of recent changes in the Kingdom in regard to security, policing and the management of crime and criminals and terrorism and terrorists. The Government's record on that has not so far been good, but they are taking serious steps to attempt more strongly to secure our nation—except in this Bill and in parts of Northern Ireland. The Province is already far less secure and has suffered from crime and terrorism far more than any other part of the United Kingdom.

My main point is that the Patten report was written on the understanding that the members of the commission did not expect it to be implemented immediately or to be implemented all at once. They did not expect parts of the report to be implemented until such time as society in Northern Ireland was living in a normal and peaceful way, as other people do in other parts of the United Kingdom.

Patently that has not yet happened. Perhaps we are near it, but I do not believe that. I think that we have a very long way to go. Even if we were to get Stormont operating again, if Sinn Fein were to take part on the Policing Board, or even if the IRA publicly and obviously stood down, I can say from the meetings that I have had in north and west Belfast over the weekend and which my honourable friend Quentin Davies, who serves in another place, has had with people in east Belfast, that what is happening in Northern Ireland is horrifying. There are vicious terror gangs, turf wars and gun-running, so it is not a normal part of the United Kingdom.

My key complaint about this part of the Bill is that it will do the things that the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, said. It is too soon; it will put the community at risk. Her Majesty's Government do not have a right to put the community in any part of the United Kingdomat risk. I should love to support the Government in a Bill to normalise things. I cannot wait for the day, but as an inhabitant of that country, it not safe to do so yet.

I regret that I cannot withdraw the amendment. I shall seek the views of the House.

12.42 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 10) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 106; Not-Contents, 142.

Division No. 1


Aberdare, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bridgeman, V. [Teller]
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Cox, B.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L. [Teller]
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Walton, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Reay, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rogan, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Stewartby, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tenby, V.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wolfson, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Barker, B.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Greaves, L.
Grenfell, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Richard, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Sandberg, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Sewel, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Uddin, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Williamson of Horton, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

23 Jan 2003 : Column 864

12.53 p.m.

Clause 9 [Inquiries by Board]:

[Amendment No. 11 not moved.]

Clause 10 [Approval of proposals relating to inquiries by Board]:

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