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Lord Glentoran: My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for that response. I had half expected that he would assure me that the amendment was not required and I am delighted that it is not.
On Report we spoke about the intolerable conditions at the Garnerville training centre. Your Lordships will be delighted to know that I read yesterday that a new training centre has gone to the top of the list of priorities of the Policing Board and the Chief Constable and they are urgently moving to try to find something. I am not sure whether the noble and learned Lord had something to do with that, but he is smiling. If he did, I thank him and his officials for taking action.
I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 15 and 16:
- Before Clause 19, insert the following new clause—
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 19 [Disclosure of information and holding of inquiries]:
Lord Williams of Mostyn moved Amendments Nos. 17 and 18:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Glentoran moved Amendment No. 19:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is another attempt to solve in advance any problems that might arise out of the Chief Constable not wishing to give information to the Policing Board for the reasons stated in the amendment. These are the most important and crunchy two or three lines that are wrong in the Bill.
We have all spoken to the issue a number of times. The noble and learned Lord graciously spoke to me before we came into the Chamber. I understand that he has some positive news for me. I beg to move.
Lord Mayhew of Twysden: My Lords, if there is some positive news to come, that will be further cause to rejoice. I do not wish to postpone unduly the time at which noble Lords can indulge in it. However, I want to allude to the time spent in Committee and on Report dealing with the removal by Clause 19 of one of the grounds that the 2000 Act allowed the Chief Constable to rest upon when deciding that the board's request for a report on a certain matter would be
That ground was accorded to the Chief Constable in the 2000 Act and is taken away by Clause 19 of this Bill. We have spent a great deal of time trying to elicit the reason for the change. It is important that the reason should be made clear, because suspicion is never far below the surface in Northern Ireland. If the perception is held that there is some undisclosed reason why a provision so recently accorded in government legislation is being removed two years later, confidence in the arrangements for which the Bill is responsible will be undermined. I know the noble and learned Lord will not want that to be the case.
We have asked why the change is being made. The debate has assumed an almost theological character. The noble and learned Lord has wrapped himself in the cloak of what I might call the book of Patten. He said that Patten required this measure and that, even if it did not, another text called the Implementation Plan, which we understand to have been written not later than July 2001, foretells it. Because it was foretold, the change has to be made so that the scripture may be fulfilled.
On the other hand, my noble friend Lord Glentoran spoke to this insight—that it must be wrong to force a Chief Constable who believes that it would be prejudicial on the grounds given to make the information public, or, at least, to give it to the board. There has been no movement on that matter. This is not the time for close textual analysis or, indeed, for any analysis, but I record my respectful opinion that Patten does not require the Government to make the change. If it did require that, how come the Government did not make it in 2000, but legislated as they did?
I cannot conceal my opinion that there are grounds for considerable suspicion here, which will certainly be held in Northern Ireland. I speak diffidently in the presence of those who come from that Province, but a suspicion will certainly be held, and it will centre on the idea that the change has been asked for from a certain quarter. That quarter would be Sinn Fein. We should know whether it has been asked for, or not. I would not regard it as self-evidently wrong that it should be accorded if it had been asked for from any quarter, but we should know if it has been.
That is why my noble friend's amendment should be supported. It is a clever middle way that enables the Government to get round the problem. I hope that they do what they have declined to do so far—namely, clear up any suspicion.
"RESTRICTION ON DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
After section 74 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) insert—
"74A RESTRICTION ON DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION
(1) This section applies if information is supplied in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (2), (3) or (4).
(2) The circumstances are that—
(a) the information is supplied by the Chief Constable to a person conducting an inquiry under section 60;
(b) the person has been appointed under section 60(9) to conduct the inquiry;
(c) the Chief Constable informs the person that, in his opinion, the information is information of a kind mentioned in section 60(10A)(a) or (b).
(3) The circumstances are that—
(a) the information is supplied by the Chief Constable under section 33A or 59 to the Board or the committee constituted by the Board under paragraph 24(1A) of Schedule 1;
(b) the Chief Constable informs the Board or the committee under section 33A(6) or 59(4H) that, in his opinion, the information is information of a kind mentioned in section 33A(5)(a) or (b) or section 59(4C)(a) or (b).
(4) The circumstances are that—
(a) the information is supplied by a person conducting an inquiry under section 60 to the committee constituted by the Board under paragraph 24(1A) of Schedule 1;
(b) the information was supplied to the person conducting the inquiry in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (2).
(5) If information is supplied in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (2), the information must not be disclosed by the person who is conducting or has conducted the inquiry or by a person who is or has been a member of staff of the Board except—
(a) to a member of the staff of the Board who is assisting in the conduct of the inquiry;
(b) to the Secretary of State;
(c) to the Chief Constable;
(d) to the Ombudsman in connection with an investigation under section 60A of the 1998 Act;
(e) to the committee constituted by the Board under paragraph 24(1A) of Schedule 1;
(f) for the purposes of any criminal, civil or disciplinary proceedings;
(g) in the form of a summary or other general statement made by the person the terms of which have been agreed with the Chief Constable.
(6) If information is supplied in the circumstances mentioned in subsection (3) or (4), the information must not be disclosed by a person who is or has been a member of the Board or a member of the staff of the Board except—
(a) in the case of information supplied to the Board, to a member of the Board or a member of the staff of the Board;
(b) in the case of information supplied to the committee constituted by the Board under paragraph 24(1A) of Schedule 1, to a member of the committee or a member of staff of the Board who provides services to the committee;
(c) to the Secretary of State;
(d) to the Chief Constable;
(e) to the Ombudsman in connection with an investigation under section 60A of the 1998 Act;
(f) for the purposes of any criminal, civil or disciplinary proceedings;
(g) in the form of a summary or other general statement made by the Board the terms of which have been agreed with the Chief Constable.
(7) Any person who discloses information in contravention of this section shall be guilty of an offence and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
(8) In this section "member of the staff of the Board" means—
(a) a person employed by the Board under paragraph 13(1) of Schedule 1;
(b) a person employed in the civil service who provides assistance for the Board in pursuance of arrangements made under paragraph 13(2) of Schedule 1.""
Before Clause 19, insert the following new clause—
"SPECIAL COMMITTEE OF THE BOARD
(1) Paragraph 24 of Schedule 1 to the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 2000 (c. 32) (committees of the Board) is amended as set out in subsections (2) and (3).
(2) In sub-paragraph (1) after "The Board may" insert ", subject to sub-paragraphs (1A) and (1B)".
(3) After sub-paragraph (1) insert—
"(1A) The Board shall constitute a committee of 5 of its members for the purpose of—
(a) handling information supplied to it by the Chief Constable under section 33A or 59;
(b) performing such other functions of the Board as may be delegated to it by the Board.
(1B) The members of the committee constituted under sub-paragraph (1A)—
(a) shall be appointed by the Board;
(b) shall include the chairman or vice-chairman of the Board (or both of them);
(c) shall as far as practicable be representative of the Board.""
Page 11, line 9, leave out from second "information" to end of line 11.
Page 11, line 18, leave out from first "matter" to end of line 19.
Page 11, line 21, at end insert—
"( ) Where it appears to the Chief Constable that the disclosure of information under section 59 or the holding of an inquiry under section 60 would be likely to prejudice the prevention or detection of crime or the apprehension or prosecution of offenders, he may refer any such request to Her Majesty's Inspector of Constabulary."
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