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Lord Greaves: My Lords, is the Minister aware that it is not a CND march; it is a much broader anti-war coalition? I declare an interest as someone who will take part in the demonstration and the rally. I issue an invitation to any noble Lords who wish to join us. They will be extremely welcome, as will members of the Government Front Bench.

Baroness Blackstone: My Lords, I am sure that noble Lords are very grateful for the invitation that has just been issued.

European Parliament (Representation) Bill

Brought from the Commons; read a first time, and to be printed.

House of Lords Reform

3.10 p.m.

The Lord Privy Seal (Lord Williams of Mostyn) : My Lords, I beg to move the first Motion standing in my name on the Order Paper.

Lords reform has been quite a long story; today's votes in both Houses are not, of course, the end of it. It is possible that today may be decisive and will determine the broad shape of the House in the future.

4 Feb 2003 : Column 116

I will say something about today's procedure. I remind your Lordships that, when the noble Lord, Lord Renton, intervened a few days ago and suggested that 15 hours and 98 speakers might approach a reasonable sufficiency—

Noble Lords: Hear, hear.

Lord Williams of Mostyn: There was that sort of growl of approval. After any speeches, I shall formally move all seven Motions in turn. As I reminded the House a few days ago, a vote for one option does not pre-empt any of your Lordships from voting for any other options or indeed, should your Lordships so desire, for all of them.

Tellers will have to be appointed, and voices on both sides will be heard in the Chamber at the three-minute mark in the usual way. All of us are free to vote "Content" or "Not Content" to as many of the Motions as we choose. Your Lordships will remember that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, speaking, I think, on behalf of the Joint Committee, asked us to give our views on each of the options. Voting "Content" would mean, therefore, that one would regard that option as acceptable—not necessarily the best, but, at least, acceptable. Voting "Not Content" means that one would regard that particular option as not acceptable.

I shall vote for a 100 per cent elected down to 50 per cent elected House and against all other offers.

Moved, That this House approves Option 1 (fully appointed) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, I rise to say only one or two things. As the noble and learned Lord the Leader of the House correctly said, we are going to have seven very important votes. I hope that noble Lords will approach those votes with a sense that they are all significant. I can confirm from this part of the House—something that is echoed in all parts of the House—that it will be a genuinely free vote. I do not really need to say "genuinely" because, in our party, all free votes are genuinely free votes. There has been one important change since we debated the matter: the Prime Minister has said that he is not in favour of elections, and noble Lords should, therefore, be aware that, almost whatever happens, there is unlikely to be any legislation this side of the next general election.

The noble and learned Lord said how he was going to vote. I hope that, at the end of the debate, the Joint Committee will be asked to work up at least more than one option, to give us a further choice. We have time on our side. Just as I did in 1999, I will vote against an appointed House that has not a single guarantee or safeguard attached to it. Equally, I will vote for Option 4, which preserves the independent Cross Benches but allows for election of the political House. I hope that the Joint Committee will study the practicality of elections as a whole. We can then return to consideration of those detailed options and carry our debate further.

4 Feb 2003 : Column 117

The House has won respect for its famously open mind. I hope today that we will not close our minds finally to alternative futures and that, as the Prime Minister leaps forward so eagerly to grasp the appointed House that we denied him in 1999, some noble Lords, at least, will ask themselves the old Roman question: cui bono?

Baroness Williams of Crosby: My Lords, I do not intend to make a speech beyond saying that we should vote for the future. I call on other noble Lords not to make speeches either.

Lord Bruce of Donington: My Lords, I shall give a short explanation of the vote that I propose to make, which is in favour of Option 1. My reason for so doing is that I do not believe that this House should at any point challenge the power of the House of Commons. There should be no electoral challenge to the House of Commons.

I draw the House's attention to paragraph 75 of the committee's report, which says:

    "The appointed element should be nominated by a new independent statutory Appointments Commission whose principal function would be to ensure a quality of representativeness and regional balance in the reformed House".

I believe in that, which is why I propose to support Option 1.

3.15 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Motion (Option 1) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 335; Not-Contents, 110.

Division No. 1


Ackner, L.
Ahmed, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Armstrong of Ilminster, L.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Bagri, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bell, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blaker, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bramall, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brightman, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Butler of Brockwell, L.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Chan, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Coe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Courtown, E.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crawley, B.
Crickhowell, L.
Croham, L.
Cuckney, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dunn, B.
Durham, Bp.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elder, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L.
Falkland, V.
Faulkner of Worcester, L. [Teller]
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Gavron, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greengross, B.
Gregson, L.
Grenfell, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Habgood, L.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of High Cross, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Harrison, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Imbert, L.
Inge, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jeger, B.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kingsdown, L.
Kirkham, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levene of Portsoken, L.
Lichfield, Bp.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
London, Bp.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Marshall of Knightsbridge, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mishcon, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Wolvercote, L.
Moran, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nickson, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L. [Teller]
O'Cathain, B.
Oliver of Aylmerton, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Oxford, Bp.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peston, L.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Platt of Writtle, B.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prashar, B.
Puttnam, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sewel, L.
Sharman, L.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Sheldon, L.
Sheppard of Didgemere, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Skidelsky, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tombs, L.
Tomlinson, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Turnberg, L.
Varley, L.
Vincent of Coleshill, L.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Weidenfeld, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Windlesham, L.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.


Acton, L.
Addington, L.
Adebowale, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Avebury, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Caithness, E.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carrington, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cockfield, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Filkin, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Graham of Edmonton, L. [Teller]
Greaves, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hattersley, L.
Henley, L.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hutchinson of Lullington, L.
Hylton, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Joffe, L.
Judd, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Ludford, B.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Perry of Walton, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Quinton, L.
Razzall, L.
Rea, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rennard, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richard, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Selborne, E.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Uddin, B.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)

Resolved in the affirmative, and Motion agreed to accordingly.

4 Feb 2003 : Column 120

Lord Williams of Mostyn: My Lords, however, I now move Motion No. 2: fully elected.

Moved, That this House approves Option 2 (fully elected) in the report from the Joint Committee on House of Lords Reform.—(Lord Williams of Mostyn.)

3.36 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said Motion (Option 2) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 106; Not-Contents, 329.

4 Feb 2003 : Column 121

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