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Baroness Carnegy of Lour: My Lords, before the Minister sits down, perhaps I may say that he has just made a legal argument. But to be practical, what would happen if a foreign officer conducting surveillance stopped somebody and questioned them?

Lord Filkin: My Lords, he would be acting without authority; he would be acting outwith the law. Therefore he would be in breach of the convention and the Schengen handbook. At a very practical level—I believe that is what the noble Baroness is thrusting towards—a serious issue would be raised between NCIS and the country from which the foreign officer came. That officer would have breached a fundamental term of the framework agreement.

17 Mar 2003 : Column 51

The framework agreement operates at heart on the basis of mutual respect of the convention agreement. That would not be elevated to the greatest of issues between other member states, but it would certainly be seen as a significant breach of the agreement, the protocol and of our law.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response, and for the support of my noble friend Lady Carnegy and the noble Lords, Lord Monson and Lord Goodhart.

The Minister began ironically by saying that perhaps it does not pay to be helpful. Perhaps I may reinforce the fact that it most certainly does from his point of view. As I recall, the fact that he listened so carefully in Grand Committee meant that we were able seriously to foreshorten both Report stage and Third Reading. So the Government change of mind on certain matters was most welcome and helpful to all Members of this House.

But the Minister seeks to persuade me that I should not pursue these amendments because, on his argument, they are nugatory; that one does not need to withdraw a power which does not exist. But the Minister himself said that the Government accepted that there was a need for clarity with regard to the issue of not going into private property.

I accept the Government's argument with regard to "arrest". That provision should not be on the face of the Bill because there is clarity as to what "arrest" means. But there is the matter of the meaning of "challenge". I do not expect every member of foreign police forces or customs services to carry a copy of the Bill with them. I hope that they will be sufficiently well trained to know what it contains and what the Schengen handbook contains. My duty as a Member of Her Majesty's Opposition is to ensure that there is clarity in our legislation for members of the public in the United Kingdom. That is what I seek.

I listened to the points made by noble Lords, who prefer Amendment No. 6 to Amendment No. 5. I agree. Amendment No. 6 has greater clarity. It also has the advantage that it seeks to put on the face of the Bill the Government's interpretation. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 6:

    Page 55, line 40, at end insert—

"( ) A foreign police officer or customs officer conducting relevant surveillance in the United Kingdom under this section shall be prohibited from stopping or questioning a person under surveillance."

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I beg to move.

5.46 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 6) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 122; Not-Contents, 117.

17 Mar 2003 : Column 52

Division No. 4


Addington, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Butterworth, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crickhowell, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Denham, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Feldman, L.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Henley, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jopling, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Nicholson of Winterbourne, B.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Rawlings, B.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Warnock, B.
Weatherill, L.
Windlesham, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Bhatia, L.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Golding, B.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L. [Teller]
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Milner of Leeds, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Orme, L.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Walker of Doncaster, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord Privy Seal)
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

17 Mar 2003 : Column 53

5.56 p.m.

Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 7:

    Page 56, line 43, at end insert—

"(12) The Secretary of State shall lay before both Houses of Parliament at least once in every 12 months a report on the working of this section.""

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I did not move a similar amendment on Report because I wanted to give full consideration to the helpful and detailed response that the Minister gave to my amendments to Clause 82, the clause which introduces powers of hot surveillance for overseas police and customs officers, to which we referred in a previous amendment.

17 Mar 2003 : Column 54

The Government have sought to reassure us throughout that these powers will be used only on rare occasions. I certainly hope that they are right and that that proves to be the case. But regardless of whether the Minister is right or wrong, I am convinced that it is vital that these novel and significant powers should be subject to some form of scrutiny and evaluation in future years.

Will the Home Office, NCIS or individual police forces monitor how foreign authorities are using these provisions? If so, will the results be available for scrutiny by Parliament? Will the operation of what will become Section 76A of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 be reviewed under the arrangements for scrutinising the operation of that Act?

As I said in Grand Committee in relation to another part of the Bill, it is important that when new provisions are introduced into the United Kingdom's domestic law, particularly those which depend upon the actions of authorities in other countries, they are kept under scrutiny in order to ensure that they are operating effectively in the fight against crime and for the benefit of the United Kingdom and its citizens.

I believe that these novel provisions are significant enough to warrant a proper form of scrutiny. My amendment seeks to impose an annual reporting system. I am certainly open to suggestions from the Minister for finding another route. I do not seek to impose a "Bassam special" upon the House necessarily on this occasion. I hope that the Minister will give sufficient assurances that I shall not perhaps need to press the amendment. I beg to move.

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