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Lord Hunt of Wirral: This has been a very important debate. We have spent over an hour productively. There have been some very important speeches. I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, on her moving account of the serious problems that could be caused to rehabilitation. She gave us a practical insight into some of those difficulties. With great experience behind her words, that was of great benefit to the Committee. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, on his points. If he had not tabled the amendment to delete subsection (4), I would have done so. I therefore share his delight about the Minister's agreement to delete that subsection, although the noble Lord must take the credit.
My noble friend Lord Renton made an important point, although it was helpful to have the contribution of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, to put it in context. We shall have to consider further the
point raised by my noble friend. On the face of it, his interpretation of events looks reasonable, but I take the point of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Donaldson, that that may not be the effect and we must look at the issue further. I thank my noble friend for his comments.I praise the noble Baroness, who has given the Committee a meticulous and reassuring response. As she knows, there have been some serious concerns. Her statement in summing up this wide-ranging debate will give comfort to those who have had serious cause for concern. She did not answer all the points, but I welcome the wording that she has used, in particular the adoption of a cautious approach to variation, the circumstances that she has clearly set out and the way in which she has made clear that the relevant clauses will not apply to claims concluded by the implementation date of the Bill. That series of matters is of enormous importance. We must now take time to examine carefully what the noble Baroness has said. I believe that I could summarise by saying that she has done much to reassure those who had cause for concern. It is now our task to set her words against the terminology of the Bill to ensure that it has the effect she seeks.
Sadly, rising stars do not stay in the same place for very long. I am sure that the noble Baroness, when she looks down on us from a new Cabinet position in the short time—I suppose I must say—left for the Government, she will understand that we must make sure that the legislation will apply to her successor of whichever colour. It may well occur that her successor does not share her views that it should be as restricted as she has announced, particularly in later form. I hope she will now give us an opportunity to think carefully about what she has said this evening, but we thank her for her reassuring words. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
[Amendment No. 140A not moved.]
[Amendment No. 140B had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
[Amendment No. 140C not moved.]
[Amendment No. 141 had been withdrawn from the Marshalled List.]
[Amendments Nos. 141ZA and 141ZB not moved.]
Lord Goodhart moved Amendment No. 141A:
- Page 46, leave out lines 17 and 18.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
[Amendments Nos. 141AA to 141EA not moved.]
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 141F:
- Page 47, line 12, after "court" insert "in so far as it is"
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving the amendment, I shall speak also to the other amendments in the group. It is intended that the Bill should maintain the present position that periodical payments in respect of personal injury are exempt from income tax. The amendments ensure that the provisions of Clause 92 accurately achieve this.
Amendments Nos. 141F, 141G, 141H and 141K clarify that the tax exemption for periodical payments paid in respect of personal injuries does not extend to other types of damages.
Amendments Nos. 141J, 141L and 141M clarify that periodical payments made by the Motor Insurers' Bureau, which compensates the victims of uninsured and untraced drivers, are tax exempt.
Amendments Nos. 141P, 141Q and 141R reflect these changes in the definition of "periodical payments" in Clause 93. They appear on the Marshalled List under Clause 92 , but that should be Clause 93.
Amendments Nos. 141N and 153 remove subsection (8) from Section 329AA of the Income and Corporation Taxes Act 1988, because the terms it applies no longer appear in the section as amended. I beg to move.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 141G to 141N:
- Page 47, line 13, at end insert ", or"
- Page 47, line 14, leave out "settling" and insert "in so far as it settles"
- Page 47, line 16, leave out from "varied)," to end of line 22.
- Page 47, line 26, leave out "and" and insert—
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 92, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 93 [Periodical payments: security]:
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 141P to 141S:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 93, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 94 [Power to alter judicial titles: Northern Ireland]:
[Amendment No. 142 not moved.]
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 142A:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 97 [Rules, regulations and orders]:
[Amendment No. 143 not moved.]
Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 144:
The noble Baroness said: I hate to spoil the party after such a long run of amendments not moved or formally moved. I shall speak to an amendment for a change. Earlier in the Bill, some weeks ago, we debated the pilot schemes for fines enforcement that will be launched under Clause 31 and Schedule 2. Orders made under Clause 31(4) allow pilot schemes to be introduced in particular areas and, in relation to those areas, may modify Schedule 2 or any enactment in connection with its operation.
When the Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform considered the matter, it said that it would accept that delegation was appropriate as would be the negative procedure. But it said that that would be in the context of Parliament approving the idea of pilot schemes as proposed in the Bill. The difficulty is that, when we debated those matters some weeks ago, noble Lords demonstrated significant concerns about the operation of the new pilot scheme. We share the Government's objective of trying to ensure that fines collection is far more effective and efficient than at present. But considerable concerns were expressed about the manner in which the Government intend that the new scheme should come into operation.
So the reason for tabling the amendment is to ask the Minister whether she has taken the opportunity in the intervening weeks since our last debate to reflect further on whether the negative procedure might be appropriate in this matter, and, if she has so reflected, to share her conclusions with the Committee. If she has not had the opportunity so to consider, will she undertake to do so before we reach the matter, as we surely shall, on Report? I beg to move.
Lord Bassam of Brighton: As the noble Baroness explained in moving the amendment, it would make a modification to ensure that pilot schemes were subject to the affirmative resolution procedure.
We have given the matter careful thought, and we fully understand the interest in the details of the proposed arrangements that prompted the amendment. The enforcement measures are a radical departure from existing practice, and the Government believe that they should be thoroughly tested before implementation. There would be little merit in piloting the measures unless it were possible to change or even abandon elements of the package that did not work as intended. Pilots will be carried out immediately following Royal Assent, during late 2003 or early 2004, with the aim of introducing the fines collection scheme as soon as possible following evaluation.
The pilots will allow different elements of the scheme to be tested in different areas so that their effectiveness in improving the payment rate can be evaluated. For example, a discount for prompt payment and/or an increase for default may be piloted in one area; wheel clamping or registration of the debt as sanctions for defaulters may be piloted in another.
As the Bill stands, the Lord Chancellor may, once the pilot schemes have been evaluated, make an order under Clause 31(8) modifying Schedule 2 and associated legislation in the light of experience of the pilots. That final package, which may still be the whole scheme as presently envisaged or a modified scheme, would then be put to Parliament for approval under the affirmative resolution procedure before being rolled out nationally. That approach will enable the Government to bring forward a package of tried and tested measures that, we can be sure, will deliver the improvements in performance that the Committee will want to see.
Amendment No. 144 would make the piloting of the schemes, details such as which parts of the scheme were to be piloted in which area and any temporary change to enactments to allow the pilots to take place subject to affirmative resolution. The Select Committee on Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform found that the power as a negative resolution had been appropriately delegated.
The final package will be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure, and that provides the necessary flexibility. I repeat that the Select Committee found that, in this instance, the negative resolution procedure was as appropriately delegated. We are not providing a blank cheque, and there is an opportunity to have a full and detailed debate on the details of the final scheme. We think that we have covered the concerns that the noble Baroness understandably raised in moving the amendment.
"(ba) in subsection (6) after "claim or action for" insert "damages in respect of","
Page 47, line 32, leave out "and"
Page 47, line 36, at end insert—
", and
(c) the reference to an agreement in so far as it settles a claim or action for damages in respect of personal injury also includes a reference to an undertaking given by the Motor Insurers' Bureau (being the company of that name incorporated on 14th June 1946 under the Companies Act 1929), or an Article 75 insurer under the Bureau's Articles of Association, in relation to a claim or action in respect of personal injury.""
Page 47, line 36, at end insert—
", and.
(d) omit subsection (8)."
Page 48, line 34, after "court" insert "in so far as it is"
Page 48, line 35, at end insert ", or"
Page 48, line 36, leave out "settling" and insert "in so far as it settles"
Page 48, line 37, leave out from "varied)," to end of line 42 and insert—
"(6) In subsection (5)(b) the reference to an agreement in so far as it settles a claim or action for damages in respect of personal injury includes a reference to an undertaking given by the Motor Insurers' Bureau (being the company of that name incorporated on 14th June 1946 under the Companies Act 1929), or an Article 75 insurer under the Bureau's Articles of Association, in relation to a claim or action in respect of personal injury.""
After Clause 95, insert the following new clause—
"ALTERATION OF PLACE FIXED FOR CROWN COURT TRIAL: NORTHERN IRELAND
An application under section 48(3) of the 1978 Act (application for variation of place fixed for Crown Court trial) is no longer required to be heard in open court; and accordingly section 48(4) of the 1978 Act ceases to have effect."
Page 52, line 1, after "made" insert "under section 31(4) which contains provision of the type specified in section 31(5) or"
7 p.m.
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