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Baroness Noakes: I thank my noble friend for that additional comment, and I thank the Minister for his response.

I shall explain to my noble friend why I tabled the amendment. Sexual predators in chat rooms do not always use sexual language or other communication. The aim of groomers in Internet chat rooms is to gain the trust of the child and to arrange a meeting. That is what they do. The advice we had from the Metropolitan Police was that one could not always detect from the nature of the communications prior to a meeting that there was any sexual content.

The communication in the chat rooms where the grooming takes place could appear to be innocent, but it is all about the groomer gaining the child's trust so that the child will then go ahead and arrange a meeting. The Minister understood where I was coming from. He said that the amendment goes too far but, to get a risk of sexual harm order, one must show that it is necessary for the purpose of protecting children, so it is not the only thing that must be shown.

I shall consider what the Minister said. I am keen that the risk of sexual harm orders should be capable of being used in circumstances in which, we know, harm can be done to children. We know that children can be exposed to harm in Internet chat rooms. That was my rationale for tabling the amendment. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 110, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 111 agreed to.

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Clause 112 [Risk of sexual harm orders: variations, renewals and discharges]:

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 461:

Page 57, line 42, at end insert "(and any renewed or varied order may contain only such prohibitions as are necessary for this purpose)"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 462:

Page 58, line 1, leave out subsection (5) and insert—

"(5) The court must not discharge an order before the end of 5 years beginning with the day on which the order was made, without the consent of the defendant and—
(a) where the application is made by a chief officer of police, that chief officer, or
(b) in any other case, the chief officer of police for the area in which the defendant resides."

The noble and learned Lord said: I spoke to this amendment in an earlier group.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 112, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 113 to 116 agreed to.

Clause 117 [Power to amend Schedules 2 and 3]:

[Amendment No. 463 not moved.]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 463A:

Page 60, line 6, leave out "103(4) to (6), 104 and 107" and insert "104 and (Section (Foreign travel orders: applications and grounds): qualifying offenders)"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 463B:

Page 60, line 7, leave out ", cautions and punishments" and insert "and cautions"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 464:

Page 60, line 14, leave out "punishment" and insert "disposal"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 117, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 118 [Young offenders: application]

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 465:

Page 60, line 42, leave out from "or" to end of line 43 and insert "Article 45 of the Criminal Justice (Children) (Northern Ireland) Order 1998 (S.I. 1998/1504 (N.I. 9)),"

The noble and learned Lord said: Amendments Nos. 465, 466 and 467 are technical and make the necessary modifications to allow for the proper operation of Part 2 of the Bill in Northern Ireland. Amendments Nos. 492 to 494 and 496 amend Clause 127 which is concerned with the extent of the Bill. They have two consequences. First, they make the changes

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needed to reflect the extension of the defence under Clause 53 to Northern Ireland. Secondly, they provide that the offence of causing a child under the age of 13 to engage in sexual activity under Clause 8 of the Bill is no longer to extend to Northern Ireland. I beg to move.

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 118, as amended, agreed to.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton moved Amendment No. 465A:

After Clause 118, insert the following new clause—

"OFFENCES WITH THRESHOLDS
(1) This section applies to an offence which in Schedule 2 is listed subject to a condition relating to the way in which the defendant is dealt with in respect of the offence or (where a relevant finding has been made in respect of him) in respect of the finding.
(2) For the purposes of this Part (including in particular section 84(6))—
(a) a person is to be regarded as convicted of such an offence, or
(b) (as the case may be) a relevant finding in relation to such an offence is to be regarded as made,
at the time when the condition is met.
(3) In the following subsections, references to a foreign offence are references to an act which—
(a) constituted an offence under the law in force in a country outside the United Kingdom ("the relevant foreign law"), and
(b) would have constituted an offence to which this section applies (but not an offence, listed in Schedule 2, to which this section does not apply) if it had been done in any part of the United Kingdom.
(4) In relation to a foreign offence, references to the corresponding UK offence are references to the offence (or any offence) to which subsection (3)(b) applies in the case of that foreign offence.
(5) For the purposes of this Part, a person is to be regarded as convicted under the relevant foreign law of a foreign offence at the time when he is, in respect of the offence, dealt with under that law in a way equivalent to that mentioned in Schedule 2 as it applies to the corresponding UK offence.
(6) Where in the case of any person a court exercising jurisdiction under the relevant foreign law makes in respect of a foreign offence a finding equivalent to a relevant finding, the court's finding is, for the purposes of this Part, to be regarded as made at the time when the person is, in respect of the finding, dealt with under that law in a way equivalent to that mentioned in Schedule 2 as it applies to the corresponding UK offence.
(7) Where (by virtue of an order under section 117 or otherwise) an offence is listed in Schedule 3 subject to a condition such as is mentioned in subsection (1), this section applies to that offence as if references to Schedule 2 were references to Schedule 3.
(8) In this section, "relevant finding", in relation to an offence, means—
(a) a finding that a person is not guilty of the offence by reason of insanity, or
(b) a finding that a person is under a disability and did the act charged against him in respect of the offence."

The noble and learned Lord said: I can assure Members of the Committee that the purpose of this amendment is much more straightforward than it looks. Schedule 2 to the Bill lists the offences which trigger the notification requirements of Part 2 of the Bill. For the most serious offences such as rape a conviction or relevant finding under the mental health legislation

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automatically triggers the requirements. However, some of the offences will trigger registration only if the particular facts of the case are sufficiently serious to merit a specified penalty such as imprisonment. This amendment seeks to clarify that. Where an offence that triggers registration has such a threshold relating to sentence or other disposal, the offender is to be regarded as having been convicted for the offence only when that threshold has been met. The amendment applies only to Part 2 of the Bill. Establishing the date of conviction or finding is important because it triggers the date when the notification requirement of this part of the Bill will start to apply to the offender. For example, under Clause 85 an offender is required to make an initial notification at a police station within three days of the date of his conviction or finding for a relevant offence. In the case of offences with disposal thresholds the notification requirements will apply only where the thresholds are met. That will not be known until the offender is dealt with by the court. That could be some time after being convicted for the offence.

The proposed amendment clarifies that a person should only be treated as having been convicted for a relevant offence if any applicable sentence threshold is met. Similarly, a person is only to be treated as being made subject to a relevant finding under the mental health legislation once any applicable disposal threshold is met; for example, a hospital order is imposed. The notification requirements would therefore apply from the date of a disposal rather than from conviction.

Subsections (3) to (6) of the proposed new clause cover foreign convictions and findings. The effect of those subsections is the same as that on convictions or findings in the United Kingdom, in that the date of conviction or finding will be the date when the relevant disposal thresholds for the offence are met. The offences in Schedule 3 do not currently have sentence thresholds. However, subsection (7) of the new clause extends the provisions of the clause to cover Schedule 3, should thresholds be applied to those offences at some time in the future. The purpose of this amendment is to clarify when offenders become subject to the notification requirements of this part of the Bill. I beg to move.

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