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Baroness Blatch: My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland of Asthal, was right about what the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, said. It covers lots of people who do not have a formal job such as teaching or social work. All sorts of other people can claim to be educating a child, especially if we go down the road indicated by the next group of amendments. They could be addressing the child's emotional well-being, confusion about sexuality or whatever. It is much wider than that.
I am deeply depressed by the response to the amendment, except for that of my noble friend Lord Lucas, who gave his support. It defies belief that somebody on a sex offending register could be allowed a defence by simply claiming to be dealing with a child's emotional well-being or with the education of a child, even in a one-to-one relationship.
In education, one need only think of Connexions. Surprisingly, even the parents of young people below the age of 16 are not allowed to know what the relationship is between an adult mentor and their child. They are not allowed to know who the mentor is or even to know that the child has a mentor. As it is couched, the law allows the mentor to get up close and personal to a young person, without the parents knowing anything about it. It is probable that such people could be engaged in dealing with drugs, sex and sexuality. In that situation, young people would be very exposed, if somebody got into the Connexions field. I have done a little detective work on how people become mentors. Given the number of mentors being employed, it will not be long before a paedophile is
engaged as a Connexions mentor. It would be interesting to know where culpability would lie in that situation.I am deeply depressed by the response, and I seek the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 17) shall be agreed to?
Their Lordships divided: Contents, 72; Not-Contents, 192.
Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.
5.20 p.m.
Baroness Walmsley moved Amendment No. 18:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, in moving Amendment No. 18, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 21 and 22 and the rest of the amendments in this group. I welcome government Amendments Nos. 19, 20, 83 and 84. They go a long way towards achieving what we want. Therefore, I shall not press my amendments.
There is clearly a great need for advice about the emotional side of sexual relations and the pressures that young people feel about them. Agony aunts in teenage magazines, counsellors at the end of a telephone helpline, teachers and other youth workers provide services which are highly valued by young people. A question poll on the CosmoGIRL website a few days ago produced the following results. The question was: "If you have a question about sex who would you turn to?". The result was that 3 per cent responded that they would turn to a doctor or Brook Centre; 79 per cent responded that they would turn to a magazine agony aunt; and 18 per cent responded that they would turn to their parents.
I should like to quote from two of many letters received by these magazines. Thanking a magazine for printing an article about a teenage mother, one girl wrote:
Those letters speak for themselves. Parents and doctors are highly desirable as confidants for young people but, for many reasons of their own, young people do not always choose to use them as such. I should therefore like to take the opportunity of making three brief points. First, this is the first time that the law has attempted to make talking to children a criminal offence. There have been several references to the Gillick case during the course of this Bill. The Gillick case was not about advice, it was about
treatmentin other words, physical touching which, without proper consent, could be held in law to be an assault.Under Article 10 of the Human Rights Act, children have a right to,
Secondly, to make a more general point, the clause demonstrates the Bill's obsessive tunnel vision on child abuse which fails to take in the wider picture of normal adolescent behaviour and ordinary society. For the sake of prosecuting an adult for talking in an inappropriate way to a minorjust talking, not grooming or inciting or touching, which are all separate offences alreadythe Government were, until this late stage, happy to jeopardise the work of hundreds of thousands of counsellors, advisers, teachers and parents who are all making the difficult process of growing up easier for our children.
Frankly, it beggars belief that anyone will now be prosecuted by the police under this clause. What was far more likely before the Government came around to the point of view expressed by these Benches and othersand could still just happenwas that one of the so-called "family" organisations would have tried to launch a civil actiona Gillick rematch, as it were. Do the Government really want this? I hope that today we shall do enough to avoid that.
Finally, the Government's amendment still remains a hostage to fortune because it is so prescriptively framed. For example, subsection (3)(c) permits assistance which prevents a child becoming pregnant. It assumes that the "child" in question is a girl under 16 years-old. Suppose, as is not unheard of, the "child" is a boy under 16 who is seeking contraceptive advice because he is having sex with an older girl. Strictly speaking no one could help him with his problem because his girlfriend is not a child who is in danger of pregnancy. I am afraid that the clause was written so prescriptively because the Government were paranoid about not allowing "loopholes" for child abusers, although in practice such possible loopholes can be found wherever one looks. Just because a child abuser might try to use a loophole does not mean that he will escape prosecution. Surely it would have been much wiser to have accepted our earlier suggestions which made a general, commonsense declaration that advice and assistance which was in the child's best interests would not be an offence.
However, I do not wish to appear ungracious. I welcome the Government's amendments. I shall be supporting them. As I said, I shall not press my
amendments, but I look forward to hearing the Minister's assurances to those bona fide people who help young people. I beg to move.
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