| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Noakes: My Lords, I shall speak briefly. When I saw the amendment, I was completely mystified as to why spymasters would need to download child pornography for the purposes of the business about which we are allowed to know nothing. I will take it on trust that the noble Baroness, Lady Scotland, has assured herself that it is a proper activity to make child pornography lawful in this instance and shall not press the matter further. However, I register again my extreme surprise.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 71 to 77:
- Page 23, line 39, leave out from beginning to end of line 2 on page 24 and insert—
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 65 [Sex with an adult relative: penetration]:
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 78:
Lord Lucas moved, as an amendment to Amendment No. 78, Amendment No. 79:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, the list in Amendment No. 78, as far as I can see, is a collection of relatives who may be expected to share or will share consanguinity of 25 per cent or more. The relative missing from the list is a blood uncle or blood aunt.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I know that the noble Lord would like to be inclusive in that regard and include uncles and aunts in the scope of the offence of penetrative sex with an adult relative under Clause 65. I assume that it is only an oversight that he has not tabled a similar amendment to Clause 66, headed "Sex with an adult relative: consenting to penetration". The same issue arises.
Our general policy on the offences in Part 1 has been that the criminal law should intervene only if sexual behaviour is non-consensual, exploitative or abusive and that it has no role to play in consensual activity that does not cause harm. With regard to consensual sexual activity between adults who are closely related by blood, we continue to feel that the criminal law has a role to play in upholding morals and making a statement about behaviour that is not acceptable.
Although the familial child sex offences have been drawn more widely than the old incest offences in order to reflect the opportunities for the abuse of children that exist in the family unit, we are content that the primary motivation for the "sex with an adult relative" offences should be concerned with morality and eugenics—gene mutation in children born of same-blood unions.
I appreciate that aunts and uncles are prohibited by law from marrying their nephews and nieces, but that is also true of other categories of relative—for example, adoptive parents and their adoptive children. Uncles and aunts have never been included in the incest offences, and we can see no reason to make sexual activity between such relatives a criminal offence now. I regret to say that, for those reasons, I cannot accept the amendment.
Lord Lucas: My Lords, I am content not to pursue the question of morality. I am happy to leave the noble Baroness and the Government to theirs. On the eugenics matter, I must say that there is no difference between a relationship between an uncle and his niece and a relationship between a young girl and her half-brother. They are exactly the same, and one would expect that, on average, there would be 25 per cent consanguinity.
I am surprised to see that, if we criminalise the relationship between a young girl and her half-brother, which is likely to be perfectly ordinary and innocent and less likely to be abusive than a relationship between an uncle and a niece, the Government will not, on the basis of eugenics, also include the uncle-niece relationship.
I shall not press the amendment and beg leave to withdraw it.
Amendment No. 79, as an amendment to Amendment No. 78, by leave, withdrawn.
On Question, Amendment No. 78 agreed to.
Clause 66 [Sex with an adult relative: consenting to penetration]:
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendment No. 80:
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Clause 74 [Exceptions to aiding, abetting and counselling]:
[Amendments Nos. 81 and 82 not moved.]
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 83 and 84:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Clause 76 [Presumptions about the absence of belief in consent]:
Baroness Scotland of Asthal moved Amendments Nos. 86 to 89:
On Question, amendments agreed to.
Lord Lucas moved Amendment No. 90:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, on Report, I moved an amendment on this subject. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, said that he quite
"(2A) Those persons are—"
Page 24, line 7, leave out "or" and insert "and"
Page 24, line 8, at end insert—
"( ) An authorisation may be given by the Director-General of the Security Service if it appears to him necessary for the exercise of any of the functions of the Service.
( ) An authorisation may be given by the Director of GCHQ if it appears to him necessary for the exercise of any of the functions of GCHQ (and in this subsection "GCHQ" has the same meaning as in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 (c. 13)).
( ) An authorisation—
(a) must be in writing,
(b) must specify the person to whom it is given and the purpose for which it is given, and
(c) may specify conditions to which it is subject.""
Page 24, line 15, leave out from "given" to "necessary" in line 16 and insert "by a person within paragraph (2A) if it appears to that person"
Page 24, leave out lines 20 to 25 and insert—
"(2A) Those persons are—"
Page 24, line 30, leave out "or" and insert "and"
Page 24, line 31, at end insert—
"( ) An authorisation may be given by the Director-General of the Security Service if it appears to him necessary for the exercise of any of the functions of the Service.
( ) An authorisation may be given by the Director of GCHQ if it appears to him necessary for the exercise of any of the functions of GCHQ (and in this paragraph "GCHQ" has the same meaning as in the Intelligence Services Act 1994 (c. 13)).
( ) An authorisation—
(a) must be in writing,
(b) must specify the person to whom it is given and the purpose for which it is given, and
(c) may specify conditions to which it is subject.""
Page 30, line 19, leave out from "sexual" to end of line 29 and insert—
"(ba) the other person (B) is aged 18 or over,
(bb) A is related to B in a way mentioned in subsection (1A), and
(bc) A knows or could reasonably be expected to know that he is related to B in that way.
(1A) The ways that A may be related to B are as parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, half-brother, or half-sister.
(1B) Where in proceedings for an offence under this section it is proved that the defendant was related to the other person in any of those ways, it is to be taken that the defendant knew or could reasonably have been expected to know that he was related in that way unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he knew or could reasonably have been expected to know that he was."
Line 6, after "grandparents," insert "uncle, aunt,"
Page 30, line 40, leave out from "sexual" to end of line 9 on page 31 and insert—
"(ba) the other person (B) is aged 18 or over,
(bb) A is related to B in a way mentioned in subsection (1A), and
(bc) A knows or could reasonably be expected to know that he is related to B in that way.
(1A) The ways that A may be related to B are as parent, grandparent, child, grandchild, brother, sister, half-brother, or half-sister.
(1B) Where in proceedings for an offence under this section it is proved that the defendant was related to the other person in any of those ways, it is to be taken that the defendant knew or could reasonably have been expected to know that he was related in that way unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he knew or could reasonably have been expected to know that he was."
Page 34, line 25, leave out "or"
Page 34, line 26, at end insert "or
(d) promoting the child's emotional well-being by the giving of advice,"
Page 35, line 4, leave out paragraph (b).
Page 35, line 7, at beginning insert "the complainant is to be taken not to have consented to the relevant act unless sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he consented, and"
Page 35, line 7, after "have" insert "reasonably"
Page 35, line 8, leave out "he proves that he did believe it" and insert "sufficient evidence is adduced to raise an issue as to whether he reasonably believed it."
Page 35, line 20, at end insert—
"( ) the defendant had committed, or knew that another person had committed, an offence under section 62 in relation to the complainant, and the defendant did not reasonably believe that the complainant was no longer suffering from the effects of the substance that had been administered;"
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page