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Baroness Buscombe: My Lords, I thank the Minister for his response, although it was somewhat predictable. I am sorry that the Minister did not accept any of the arguments put forward, I felt quite cogently, regarding the many regulations that already exist. Employers complain daily that they must put up with those regulations—on risk assessments, health and safety and so on—to carry out their daily business.

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate. The Government know that our interests are for those people who have been lobbying, including the 110,000 musicians and friends of music and entertainment who signed a petition that was delivered to Number 10 this week regarding the future of entertainment and live music in small premises. We care passionately about the future enjoyment of all those who go to pubs in this country. Unless this amendment is made, that future enjoyment for all of us, as well as the livelihoods of musicians and entertainers, will be put at great risk.

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We are not satisfied. We know that the Government are listening to us on one level, but they have simply failed to even try to come up with a workable solution that is acceptable to us. Today, we are providing a workable solution. I wish to test the opinion of the House.

1.35 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 62A) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 128; Not-Contents, 113.

Division No. 2


Aberdare, L.
Addington, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Biffen, L.
Blatch, B.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Carey of Clifton, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Coe, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elton, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fookes, B.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Greaves, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
James of Holland Park, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monson, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Quirk, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Saatchi, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Taverne, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Wakeham, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Windlesham, L.


Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Amos, B.
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Jones, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lipsey, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Murray of Epping Forest, L.
Nicol, B.
O'Neill of Bengarve, B.
Orme, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Warner, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Mostyn, L. (Lord President of the Council)
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

19 Jun 2003 : Column 954

19 Jun 2003 : Column 955

1.46 p.m.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that further consideration of Commons amendments be adjourned.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

Baroness Crawley: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do now adjourn during pleasure.

Moved accordingly, and, on Question, Motion agreed to.

[The Sitting was suspended from 1.46 to 2 p.m. for Judicial Business and to 3 p.m. for Public Business.]

The Lord Chancellor: Leave of Absence

The Lord Chancellor (Lord Falconer of Thoroton): My Lords, may I take the opportunity to inform the House that I will be undertaking a ministerial visit to Leeds on Friday, 20th June? Accordingly, I trust that the House will grant me leave of absence.

Light Pollution

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay asked Her Majesty's Government:

    What is their policy on light pollution caused by sky glow obscuring the night sky and wasting energy.

The Minister of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Lord Rooker): My Lords, the Government's policy on light pollution is that such issues are most appropriately dealt with by raising awareness of the consequences of badly installed lighting; by providing guidance on how those problems might be mitigated; and by encouraging more effective use of existing planning powers. We are doing all those things. Since 2002–03, local authorities have been required to benchmark their energy use in street lighting. Local improvement targets will be set from 2003–04.

Lord Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay: My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Has he seen the striking satellite photographs in the recent CPRE report on "Night Blight", showing how light pollution has grown dramatically over the past seven years, particularly in the South East? Much of south-east England is a nasty orange glow, with just a patch of dark sky over the Isle of Wight. I press the Minister particularly on the need for new powers for local authorities to control nuisance lighting and deal with what the Government's consultation paper last year called the detrimental effects of light pollution.

Lord Rooker: My Lords, the answer to the noble Lord's question is "Yes". The photographs are striking. There has been an increase in light pollution: there is no question about that. The issue is what we do about it.

19 Jun 2003 : Column 956

The Select Committee in another place is carrying out a study at the moment. We wholly support it and look forward to the recommendations. In 1997, as I said, we issued a good practice guide for lighting in the countryside. In 1998, in the transport White Paper, it was made clear that, if lighting is essential, it should be done in a way that minimises nuisance.

Needless to say, accidents are reduced by a third because of good street lighting, but we must be intelligent about how we organise lighting. Some 300 million of private finance credits have been made available this financial year for improved street lighting. Last October, Living Places—Power, Rights and Responsibilities dealt with nuisance lighting and requested views on updating the country code. Given the normal lethargy of governments, we have moved with the speed of light on the issue. Before anybody asks a supplementary, I can tell the House that that is, as I recall from my rote days at school, 186,000 miles a second.

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