| Previous Section | Back to Table of Contents | Lords Hansard Home Page |
Baroness Byford: My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. He was well aware of our disquiet at the way in which the associated companies were being dealt with. We are dealing now with a whole group of amendments. I therefore wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 75 and 77 which stand in my name. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. He has kindly added his name to Amendment No. 77, for which I am grateful. Amendment No. 75 has been overtaken by other government amendments. I am grateful for that. Government Amendment No. 94 seeks to insert the words "in any other case". Will the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, explain the reason for that?
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, we on these Benches also welcome the Government's move in the direction the Minister mentioned. Will he clarify whether my Amendment No. 88, which is included in the group we are discussing, is one that the
Government are minded to accept? If not, will the Minister say why not? I, too, welcome the group of amendments.
Lord Whitty: My Lords, I should like to take away the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, as it contains a definition which I do not think entirely relates to our definition of "relevant company". I shall come back to the noble Baroness on that matter.
Government Amendment No. 94 seeks to insert the words "in any other case" in order to cover licensees and undertakers. It seeks to clarify that the measure extends to everyone who is covered by the remit of the council.
On Question, amendment agreed to.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer moved Amendment No. 43:
- Page 38, line 15, at end insert—
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment seeks to ensure that the consumer council for water has a sustainability duty. We believe that it should have that duty. If it does not, we are concerned that it will not be able to justify spending time on sustainability issues. This is an important issue and one that rightly recognises the fact that the consumer interest extends far beyond just the price of water to issues such as the state of the water environment, rivers, wetlands and coastal waters. Indeed, surveys show that consumers rank concern about the environment high among their priorities. For those reasons I hope that the Government are now minded to accept the amendment. I beg to move.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I wish to place on the record the fact that in principle we on these Benches support the amendment.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, for their comments. We should like to take the issue away and consider it between now and Third Reading.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for that reply. I hope that means that the Government will consider the amendment favourably. In the light of that reply, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer moved Amendment No. 44:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, this amendment seeks to ensure that the consumer voice is heard and that the consumer interest is balanced against other interests. It will be the purpose of the council to identify and represent consumers' concerns and it is therefore essential that decisions that affect consumers should be the subject of consultation with the council. At present consultation with the consumer body, Water Voice, is a matter of good practice. It is logical and appropriate that with the setting up of the council such good practice should be enshrined in legislation on the face of the Bill.
I believe that in Grand Committee the Minister was still of a mind that such an amendment was not necessary because there would be a memorandum of understanding. I hope that the Government will have reconsidered the matter and are minded to include it on the face of the Bill as it would greatly strengthen the standing of the consumer council for water with consumers and its power. I beg to move.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I wish to put on record the general support of these Benches for the amendment.
Baroness Farrington of Ribbleton: My Lords, I am sure that both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord will be pleased that we are prepared to take the matter away and reconsider it. We may prefer to look at a general requirement to consult where appropriate rather than specifying particular circumstances which may on reflection not keep up to date with regulatory developments. But I do not think that there is a drop of water between us and I am quite sure that we shall be able to resolve the matter at Third Reading.
Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer: My Lords, a general power sounds most promising. I look forward to seeing the Government's proposition. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Schedule 2 [The Consumer Council for Water]:
Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 45:
The noble Lord said: My Lords, it would be nice if the Government's gramophone needle became stuck in the groove as regards this amendment but I suspect that it will not work quite like that.
In moving Amendment No. 45 I should say that we understand the way in which modern society seeks to take into account people who suffer from any kind of
Lord Whitty: My Lords, we come back to the problem of lists here. I understand the intention behind the amendment but it is not necessary as it is implicit that for a member of the council to be effective he or she must have regard to the interests of all the groups listed in new Section 27C, to which the amendment refers. That is central to the mainstream functions of the council. Those of pensionable age or on low incomes or those in rural areas all share general concerns about the supply and quality of water. On the other hand, disabled groups have particular needs which are unique to them. That is why the disabled groups are listed in terms of membership, but other vulnerable groups or potential interest groups that might have a claim to representation on the council are not. The main point of the council is to have members who pay attention to the needs of all consumers, including the vulnerable groups referred to in Clause 27. That is why we need to provide special understandings of the interests of the disabled or chronically ill when we make appointments. There is a difference between them and other vulnerable people. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord will not pursue his amendment.
Lord Dixon-Smith: My Lords, I cannot say that I am happy about the Minister's response. We have faced each other across these Dispatch Boxes from time to time on other Bills, and I am bound to say by observation that the Government argue the case whichever way they please, depending on the circumstances and the Bill. There is no consistent track record on the matter. That said, I do not know that the issue is fundamental. I am sorry that the Minister does not feel that he can act on the issue by exercising his power properly, without needing the added authority of a specific description, but I am not prepared to die for that cause. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 36 [Conditions relating to costs of water regulation]:
Baroness O'Cathain moved Amendment No. 46:
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, the amendment is grouped with Amendments Nos. 47 to 49. I shall speak to Amendments Nos. 46 and 48 together.
As we know, the Bill establishes a new consumer council for water and a mechanism by which companies must pay its expenses, but no limit is placed on the council's costs. The amendment tries to rectify that. Let us bear in mind that the costs of Ofwat are currently constrained by a condition in the company's licences. However, if the amendment were made, the payments that companies were required to pay to the council would be able to increase only in proportion to the increase in prices that they were able to charge.
The amendments are simple. They would preclude the consumer council going mad—well, not going mad, but spending an enormous amount of money on research into areas where it was not necessarily essential, and putting all the costs on the water companies. There has to be some constraint. One cannot have a body such as a consumer council without constraints, particularly if the costs are borne by, in this case, the water companies. I beg to move.
"(13) The Council shall exercise and perform its powers and duties so as to contribute to the achievement of sustainable development."
Page 38, line 39, at end insert—
"( ) Without prejudice to subsections (2) to (4) above, before—
(a) making a modification to the conditions of an appointment pursuant to section 13 of this Act;
(b) making a reference to the Competition Commission pursuant to section 14 of this Act;
(c) giving any approval pursuant to section 143(6) of this Act;
(d) making any decision which falls within paragraph (a), (b) or (e) of section 195A of this Act; or
(e) making any proposal to a relevant undertaker limiting its charges for the supply of water, the provision of sewerage services or the reception, treatment or disposal of trade effluent,
the Authority, the Secretary of State or the Assembly, as the case may be, shall consult the Council, and shall take into account any views expressed by the Council."
Page 124, leave out lines 9 to 12 and insert "a representative of each of the four groups listed in section 27C."
"The council shall consist of—
(a) a chairman appointed by the Secretary of State;
(b) one other member appointed by the Assembly; and
(c) such other members as may be appointed by the Secretary of State".
That seems to me to be such an open and inclusive method of appointing the membership that I do not see the need for further description. Therefore, the amendment seeks to delete lines 9 to 12 on page 124 and insert the words included in the amendment. I beg to move.
Page 39, line 27, at beginning insert "Subject to subsection (2A) below,"
Next Section
Back to Table of Contents
Lords Hansard Home Page