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Lord McIntosh of Haringey rose to move, That the House do not insist on its disagreement to Commons Amendment No. 62, do not insist on Lords Amendment No. 62A, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62B, but do propose Amendments Nos. 62C to 62J to Commons Amendment No. 62B and do propose Amendment No. 62L in lieu of the words left out of the Bill by Amendment No. 62—
(a) where a fire certificate issued under the Fire Precautions Act 1971 (c. 40) is in force in respect of the premises and that certificate imposes a requirement under section 6(2)(d) of that Act, the limit on the number of persons who, in accordance with that requirement, may be on the premises at any one time, and
(b) in any other case, the limit on the number of persons who may be on the premises at any one time in accordance with a recommendation made by, or on behalf of, the fire authority for the area in which the premises are situated (or, if the premises are situated in the area of more than one fire authority, those authorities); and
"supply of alcohol" means—
(a) the sale by retail of alcohol, or
(b) the supply of alcohol by or on behalf of a club to, or to the order of, a member of the club."
62CLine 4, leave out "This section" and substitute "Subsection (2)"
62DLine 7, after "(ii)" insert "the provision of"
62ELine 12, leave out from "when" to end of line 18 and insert—
'(a) the premises—
(i) are open for the purposes of being used for the supply of alcohol for consumption on the premises, and
(ii) are being used for the provision of music entertainment, and
(b) subsection (2B) does not apply, any licensing authority imposed condition of the premises licence which relates to the provision of music entertainment does not have effect, in relation to the provision of that entertainment, unless it falls within subsection (3) or (4).
(2A) Subsection (2B) applies where—
(a) a premises licence authorises the provision of music entertainment, and
(b) the premises have a permitted capacity of not more than 200 persons.
(B) At any time between the hours of 8 a.m. and midnight when the premises—
(a) are being used for the provision of music entertainment which consists of—
(i) the performance of unamplified, live music, or
(ii) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment within sub-paragraph (i), but
(b) are not being used for the provision of any other description of regulated entertainment, any licensing authority imposed condition of the premises licence which relates to the provision of the music entertainment does not have effect, in relation to the provision of that entertainment, unless it falls within subsection (4)."
62FLine 30, leave out from "licence" to end of line 32 and insert "except that, in the application of this section in relation to such a certificate, the definition of "licensing authority imposed condition" in subsection (6) has effect as if for "section 19(3)(b)" to the end there were substituted "section 72(3)(b) (but is not referred to in section 72(2)) or which is imposed by virtue of section 83(3)(b) or 86(3)"."
62GLine 33, at end of line insert—
""licensing authority imposed condition" means a condition which is imposed by virtue of section 19(3)(b) (but is not referred to in section 19(2)(a)) or which is imposed by virtue of 35(3)(b), 52(3) or 166(5)(b) or in accordance with section 21;"
62HLine 35, leave out "the provision of"
62JLine 38, leave out from "(b)" to end of 41 and insert "facilities enabling persons to take part in entertainment within paragraph (a);"
62LSchedule 1, page 112, line 12, at end insert—
The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of—
(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance, or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a)."
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this is a matter on which there has been what I could almost describe as incessant to-ing and fro-ing between various outside interests and this House and the House of Commons for a number of months. I hope that at what I hope is the final stage, we can have a sensible debate on the issues.
For the first time the provision of entertainment in a school and sixth form college by the school or college will be free of charge from the licensing fee associated with that provision and we are maintaining the current exemption from the payment of fees for entertainment in every village hall, church hall and community building, which is the position outside Greater London now. It will cost nothing extra to get permission to put on live music in pubs. So this Bill is good news for live music. It sweeps away bureaucracy and slashes through cost.
However, we recognise that some people are very worried that licensing authorities will try to sting venues for thousands of pounds worth of unnecessary conditions, even though the Bill as drafted makes that illegal. The charge is that this will discourage venue operators—notably publicans—from applying for permission to put on live music.
It is interesting to note that the people who are really concerned about this are the performers, who will not actually have to get licences, rather than the publicans or organisers, who are largely content. However, we are alive to those concerns. That is why in another place we made a concession to the effect that where a pub with a capacity of up to 200 wanted to put on live music of any kind, any conditions imposed on the licence by the licensing authority would be suspended except where they related to public safety and crime and disorder.
We kept public safety because we are simply not prepared to put lives at risk. No responsible government could act otherwise. Noble Lords might already know that in 2001 there were over 1,500 fires in pubs and clubs in England and Wales. Licensing provides a means of ensuring that experts such as the Fire Safety Authority can check premises to see that the customers will be able to get out quickly and safely if problems occur. This is a more effective regime than the health and safety and public safety regimes to which the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, in particular, referred when we debated this matter before.
We kept crime and disorder because of public concern over drugs, guns and extreme right-wing bands who excite the audience to racist violence as part of their act. It does happen. Unfortunately, live music is not madrigals on a summer evening on the village green: I wish it were. It still provides a major advantage for operators and organisers of small venues, in terms of
The Government have provided a failsafe position. The licence remains reviewable so that those who exploit the concession and behave inconsiderately towards their neighbours can be brought to book. Another place agreed to that concession. Predictably, however, the Opposition in another place were not happy. They gave the powerful arguments put forward by the Association of Chief Police Officers short shrift. They prompted the association to write to all noble Lords yesterday. I hope that they have had the letter from the Association of Chief Police Officers and one from the Local Government Association on this issue.
However, in the light of debate in another place, we have brought forward a further package of measures to lighten the load on pubs and clubs and organisers to provide the opportunity to open up the market to a wide range of performance. That package consists of four elements. First, we have tabled amendments to provide a significant concession on unamplified music. I shall explain that in more detail in a moment. Secondly, I can give today a firm undertaking that the Government will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Bill six to 12 months after the end of the transition period.
If it proves that the Bill has had an unintended, disproportionate, negative effect on the provision of live music, we will use the powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation. I say now that the Government are convinced that the Bill will already provide a real shot in the arm for entertainment and allow it to thrive.
Thirdly, and in response to concerns put to the Government most effectively by the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, we have tabled manuscript Amendment No. 62K which will exempt morris dancing and dancing of a similar nature from the entertainment requirements of the Bill. Furthermore, the review I have just mentioned will cover all aspects of regulated entertainment. It will place particular emphasis on other forms of traditional entertainment. If there is a case for further liberalisation we will respond to it.
I am sorry that I have had to table a manuscript amendment on this occasion, but the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, will confirm that this is a topic on which we were negotiating late in the evening.
Fourthly, the Department for Culture, Media and Sport will convene a forum comprising representatives of performers, venue operators, local authorities and others, whose task it will be to maximise the take-up of the reforms.
I return to the main legislative element of the package. There have been calls in both Houses and elsewhere for the Government to introduce a de minimis measure to protect unamplified music in small pubs. Our starting point is that the Bill already provides such protection.
However, today's amendments go one step further. Their effect will be to suspend conditions attached to a licence which have been imposed by a licensing authority in respect of unamplified live music in any premises with a capacity of no more than 200, where it is performed between the hours of 8 a.m. and midnight. To protect local residents and control those few inevitably unscrupulous or irresponsible operators, the licence will remain reviewable.
I believe that this removes all concerns that have been raised about low-level unamplified music like folk guitarists, for example, in small premises. I know that some people have raised the issue of instruments which require amplification in order to be heard such as an electric base guitar or an electric piano. They cannot benefit from the concession.
There are important points to be made here. First, the Bill's baseline is that it makes it easier and cheaper to put on any form of regulated entertainment. We have exempted incidental live music, whether amplified or not. That is a very powerful concession. We intend to retain the concession made in another place last week which lightens the load on amplified music in small pubs and we will work with our partners to maximise the take-up of the reforms on offer.
Perhaps I may say something about Amendment No. 62A, although there is not much more to be added to the lengthy debate we have had. This amendment is dangerous and misguided. The police find it totally unacceptable, and every Member of this House has had a letter to that effect. The Local Government Association finds it unacceptable as do residents' associations. It compromises public safety. It hamstrings the ability of the police to clamp down on drugs, guns and acts which incite the audience to violence. No responsible government could accept such an amendment. The noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, is amused. I do not believe that, if our positions were reversed and she was at this Dispatch Box, the noble Baroness would be saying anything different.
This Bill is a manifesto commitment. We are determined to see it through, but not at the expense of endangering public safety or encouraging crime and disorder.
Moved, That the House do not insist on its disagreement to Commons Amendment No. 62, do not insist on Lords Amendment No. 62A, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62B, but do propose Amendments Nos. 62C to 62J thereto, and do propose Amendment No. 62L in lieu of the words left out of the Bill by Amendment No. 62.—(Lord McIntosh of Haringey.)
4.15 p.m.
The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I make it absolutely clear that I take this issue extremely seriously. I am sorry to say that I remain in fighting mood on this issue. We must disagree with the Minister that we have what we require for the future of musicians. Before we had the two-in-a-bar rule; now we have effectively none-in-a-bar if there is minimal amplification.
The Bill continues to penalise those who play live music by imposing extra bureaucracy and financial burdens on them. Why is live music the only form of entertainment that is being regulated in this way? We simply do not understand or accept this differentiation. Why are the same rules not being applied to the screening of football matches, stand-up comedians, sword-swallowers, etc? If the Government believe that these provisions are necessary then they should have had the courage to apply them to all these forms of entertainment. Indeed, ACPO, which featured heavily in the debate, has previously stated,
There are also key safety issues; for example, during the World Cup a pub in Bristol had to be evacuated as football supporters jumping up and down on the first floor caused the ceiling plaster below to crack and fall on people in the ground floor bar—nothing to do with music. The Bill as drafted favours premises devoted solely to the consumption of alcohol and what is called "vertical drinking" over a more civilised social drinking environment that includes live music.
Ministers have raised bogus points about health and safety, noise and fire risks, which are already covered by existing regulations. That view is supported by an official at the Health and Safety Executive, who has said that the issue of electric cables should be covered by existing safety provisions, irrespective of the licensing regime.
The police already have extensive powers to intervene where there is a risk of public disorder. The idea of a notification system has been put forward to the Government to ensure that they would have had such powers in all premises even if there were an exemption.
Ministers clearly regard the playing of live music in local communities as a potential danger rather than a cultural and social benefit. As well as the community and social inclusion role of live music performance, the
The Government are just plain wrong to assert that, in the words of Richard Caborn,
Today we are fighting again for freedom of thought in live music, which is seriously under threat. The Government are about to do so much damage to the music industry for no good reason. As I have said, the Government are happy to allow big-screen broadcast entertainment to be exempt, no matter how noisy and large the audience is. Yet one guy with an acoustic guitar or double bass, with minimum amplification equipment, must be licensed. Where is the logic in that?
I turn to the government amendments. Our interpretation is that as they apply only where a premises licence, entertainment permission and a safety capacity limit are in place, they are of little use and there are no details on how, where and when the safety capacity limit can be imposed and where it cannot. If all premises had a safe limit imposed, any legal activity could take place as long as the limit was not exceeded, without any need for additional entertainment permission or conditions.
This proposal in practice will make no difference at all, except still to require all entertainment permissions to require a safe capacity limit to be imposed just to see if that pointless exemption to the condition applies and for no other reason. How is overcrowding to be prevented in premises not providing entertainment? The fact will still remain that if premises do not apply for the optional entertainment licence, any live music will be criminal without it—and the Bill being able to increase the take-up figure from the current 5 per cent is still a gamble.
Almost 90 per cent of musicians use some form of amplification. While we are grateful that the Minister has made some considerable movement on the issue, we do not believe that the Government have gone far enough. I make it absolutely clear to the House that I am grateful to the Minister and the Secretary of State for providing me with the opportunity to debate some of those issues during what we know as "ping pong" between the two Houses. But we do not feel that the concession goes far enough.
I finish by quoting a musician from Gloucester who emailed me today:
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion in the name of the Lord McIntosh of Haringey, leave out from "62" to end and insert "but do insist on their Amendment No. 62A to which the Commons have disagreed and do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62B".—(Baroness Buscombe.)
62KBaroness Buscombe rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion in the name of the Lord McIntosh of Haringey, leave out from "62" to end and insert "but do insist on their Amendment No. 62A to which the Commons have disagreed and do disagree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 62B".
"Very often such events, usually football matches, are accompanied by drinks promotion, they attract large crowds and are quite frequently the source of disorder . . . Because of these issues we are of the opinion that the applicant for a premises licence should be required to specify the intention to host such events within the operating plan. This would allow the licensing authority, taking into account police representation, the opportunity to impose conditions on the premises licence pursuant to the licensing objectives".
"nothing that does not need a licence or other authorisation now will need one under the Bill".—[Official Report, Commons, 24/6/03; col. 1004.]
The Government seek to regulate all live music on the grounds that a few heavy metal bands in the North East espouse extremist views. The Department for Culture, Media and Sport—the very ministry designed to support and nurture our musical talent, and indeed a highly successful creative industry—has managed as never before to alienate artists, musicians, songwriters and composers, and the audiences that support them, throughout the country.
"Do not be bullied into giving up the fight. It cannot be right in principle that live music, even unamplified, should require licensing when the provision of big screen broadcast entertainment or jukeboxes can be exempt no matter how powerfully amplified".
A musician from the Portland folk club said:
"The provision of one or two musicians performing in 110,000 liquor licensed premises has been exempt since 1961 not 1964 as the Government often claims. But the Licensing Bill now does away with this deminimus and now will ensnare these performances, with no evidence provided for this. For as this exemption applies only where a licence is held—it simply reflects the control already in place in the 95% of licensed premises currently without additional Public Entertainment Licenses".
The Bill was supposed to make so much difference and to free us all from unnecessary regulation. It has failed comprehensively to do so. I beg to move.
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