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Lord Livsey of Talgarth: I am sorry to intervene in the debate, but I have wide experience of the relationship between the NHS in Wales and the NHS in England. It is extremely important that there is wide consultation, particularly as it affects England. Up to 25 per cent of the patients in Powys go to English

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hospitals, in Hereford and Shrewsbury and one or two other places. That is a significant cross-border movement of patients, and it is important that they are monitored. The new hospital in Hereford has fewer beds than was formerly the case, which means that patients in Powys have achieved a second-class status in terms of waiting lists. Such matters are extremely important.

Baroness Noakes: I thank the noble Lord for that intervention. I have never denied that the cross-border flows were important. If the noble Lord had been able to join us on a previous Committee day—I am not sure which one—he would have heard an extensive debate, which the Minister may be rather disappointed that we are not having again today, about the impact of the cross-border flow. In fact, the Minister told us that she herself was a cross-border flow at one stage in her life.

The Secretary of State should get consistent advice on a hospital from one source, which should not be confused by advice coming from separate sources and, in particular, against different standards. The Assembly has decided that it will set its own standards; we do not know how they are going to be different from English standards, but they may be different. The Secretary of State has fundamental responsibility for the English hospitals, and there cannot be a lot of confusing advice about different standards and different patients, who will inevitably be at the margin of the English hospitals.

The Government have not got the measures right. In practice, on the ground, those measures will cause tremendous confusion. If the Assembly says that hospital X in England is somehow failing Welsh patients, what is the Secretary of State to do, other than to try to get an in-the-round assessment via CHAI? That is why the advice should go via CHAI in the first place.

I hope that the Government have another opportunity to rethink their Welsh interface issues before we get to Report stage, because they are really in a dreadful mess. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 333 not moved.]

Clause 69 agreed to.

Clause 70 [Right of entry]:

[Amendment No. 334 not moved.]

Clause 70 agreed to.

Clause 71 [Right of entry: supplementary]:

[Amendment No. 335 not moved.]

Clause 71 agreed to.

Clause 72 agreed to.

Clause 73 [Power to require explanation]:

Lord Warner moved Amendment No. 335A:

    Page 30, line 16, leave out "prescribed" and insert "specified by the Assembly"

On Question, amendment agreed to.

Clause 73, as amended, agreed to.

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[Amendment No. 336 not moved.]

Clause 74 [Introductory]:

Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 337:

    Page 30, line 32, leave out "and their value for money"

The noble Baroness said: In moving Amendment No. 337, I wish to speak also to Amendments Nos. 338 and 375.

Amendment No. 337 is a technical probing amendment. It seeks to leave out the words,

    "and their value for money"

from paragraph (d) of Clause 74(2), which sets out the matters with which CSCI should be concerned in particular.

I had always understood that in the public sector value for money was regarded as synonymous with economy, efficiency and effectiveness—the 3Es. Those are the words in statute that go with the value for money functions of the National Audit Office and the Audit Commission. I am not aware of any other source of wisdom on value for money. However, paragraph (b) of Clause 74(2) refers to the effectiveness of services; and paragraph (d) refers to economy and efficiency of their provision but then goes on to refer to value for money, which seems to me tautologous. Will the Minister say what is added to Clause 74(2) by the words "value for money" as the components of value for money have already been specified?

The other two amendments in the group standing in my name and that of the noble Earl, Lord Howe—Amendments Nos. 338 and 375—add to Clauses 74 and 102 the need to safeguard and promote the rights and welfare of elderly people. We have already debated this point in connection with CHAI and I have little to add to that debate. If it is necessary to separate out a vulnerable group such as children, I believe that the case for excluding elderly people is even more important for CSCI than for CHAI given the services that local authorities must provide. I say immediately to the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, that children's needs are undoubtedly important. However, the problem with mentioning children is that the exclusion of other groups may create confusion as regards their relative importance. That cannot be right. I beg to move.

Baroness Barker: I wish to speak to Amendments Nos. 338A and 376 in this group. No doubt I shall achieve as much success as I have done on every other occasion when I have mentioned these two issues but none the less I shall carry on undaunted.

Along with the three Es and value for money that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, discussed it is important that we keep returning to the principle of equity and access to services. Until such time as that is on the face of the Bill I believe that there will be the potential for huge distortions in the provision of services.

Amendment No. 376 is concerned with the inclusion of vulnerable adults. One of social services' most important functions is the delivery of services to

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vulnerable adults. The definition of "vulnerable adults" is well set out in documents such as No Secrets. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, I was willing to accept the arguments put forward by the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth of Breckland, about children being overlooked in hospital. However, I am afraid that I do not buy that argument in respect of social services where older people and vulnerable adults are in some cases numerically the largest recipients of services. But, interestingly, they will not always be so. For example, in a number of London boroughs the emphasis is being put very much on children's services because the number of older people is declining. The noble Baroness will not be surprised to hear me say that older people and vulnerable adults have very complex needs. They are equally deserving of being mentioned on the face of the Bill.

But having said that, the noble Lord, Lord Warner, would still be well advised to adopt our amendments that set out duties of equality.

Baroness Howarth of Breckland: I must speak in this debate partly to put right any misunderstanding that I do not think that groups other than children need priority. I declare an interest as a member of the National Care Standards Commission. Children are in a minority as regards the services that they will receive through CSCI. We know from vast experience that if children do not have emphasis they lose out. These, too, are all vulnerable children. The adults being accommodated are not vulnerable adults. I do not believe that people who go into old people's homes, for example, are necessarily vulnerable. They may need accommodating, but many of them would speak out very strongly if they were described as vulnerable. Indeed, some of them have asked that that terminology should not be used. It is true of some groups with learning difficulties, who see themselves as needing accommodation, but not necessarily as in the vulnerable category.

Most children received into care—I am sure that the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, will say more about them later—are usually vulnerable, so it is terribly important that they be kept in the Bill. That should not in any way detract from the services for other groups, which are actually in a majority with most funding spent on them.

9 p.m.

Lord Warner: I admire the stamina of the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, but fortified by dinner I hope that I will also demonstrate stamina on some of the issues. I do not question the importance of the issues that Amendment No. 338A raises. I should point out, however, that the Local Government Act 2000 enables local authorities to do anything that promotes the economic, social or environmental well-being of their populations. However, we should be clear that CSCI is fundamentally an inspector of the quality of social care provision, rather than a regulator of quality of life as a whole. However, those services that it regulates will have a very important impact on an individual's

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life quality. I will not go all over the argument about equity, as we have set out our position. We do not believe that the amendment is justified.

We have already debated at some length the issues dealt with in Amendments Nos. 338, 375 and 376. I obviously sympathise with those concerned about the vulnerability of older people and certain other adults. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, put the case for children extremely well. As I tried to say in an earlier debate, vulnerability in relation to adults is often very much related to the particular circumstances in which a particular adult may find himself. That is extraordinarily difficult to define appropriately in primary legislation, if I may say so without being patronising to many of those groups. That does not diminish the argument that some are vulnerable in certain circumstances, which we are not making. CHAI and CSCI will have regard to their needs, as has been made clear by those organisations already. We do not think it necessary to prescribe all that in the Bill. Indeed, it would be difficult in relation to some of the adult groups about which we have talked.

Amendment No. 337 seeks to remove CSCI's general duty to inspect the value for money of local authority social services departments. That duty has two dimensions. First, it reflects the requirement in the Local Government Act 1999 for local authorities to produce best-value performance plans in relation to their functions, including their social services functions. Currently, under Section 6 of the 1999 Act, it is the duty of every local authority to produce a best-value performance plan. Section 7 of the 1999 Act requires that an external auditor audits each best-value performance plan.

The Audit Commission is responsible for auditing the best-value performance plans that cover a majority of a local authority's services. However, the Audit Commission has done so in the past by drawing on the expertise of the inspectorate for the relevant service, currently the Social Services Inspectorate, which is concerned with those parts of the plans that deal with social services. It is envisaged that in future that role will be taken over by CSCI.

The second dimension of the duty is that it will enable CSCI to continue the joint review function currently taken by the Social Services Inspectorate in conjunction with the Audit Commission. Joint reviews have provided the public with important information about how local councils allocate resources to social services, and whether they deliver value for money. The staff responsible for joint reviews, from both the Audit Commission and the Social Services Inspectorate, will transfer to CSCI. It is thus important that CSCI's duty to look at the value for money of social services is retained to allow that work to continue. That is why it would be inappropriate to accept this amendment.

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