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Baroness Andrews: This is an important group of amendments which I shall try to put in context. They are concerned to ensure that the complaints procedures are accessible, timely and as exhaustive as possible; that nothing appropriate is excluded; and that everyone who uses health and social services is as well informed as possible and involved appropriately so that everyone gets the satisfactory outcome that they want. That is largely what Chapter 9 of the Bill sets out to do. In particular, Clause 113 sets out in very general terms the framework within which the complaints procedure will be constructed and which will be covered in more detail in accompanying regulations and in guidance.

I should outline some of the improvements that we are trying to make to the system. We are aiming to make the system more flexible; to improve local resolution of complaints; to make the resolution of complaints truly independent; to ensure that information about complaints and the causes of complaints are an integral part of the system; and to make the procedures for complaints about health and social services as compatible as possible so that from the complainant's point of view there is a seamless process with a single access point. That is very important. So we fully understand the intention of these amendments.

I shall take the amendments in numerical order. In moving Amendment No. 381, the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, pointed to what she saw as discrepancies in the treatment of complaints regarding private and National Health Service care. Amendment No. 381 seeks to ensure that the complaints procedure is comprehensive and covers healthcare services provided by third parties. It will do that in any event. The NHS complaints procedure has always been about providing patients, or someone on their behalf, with the right to complain if they are not happy with the treatment. When a patient is treated through arrangements made by NHS bodies, even if their care is not provided by an NHS body, it is right that they should be able to have their complaints addressed under the NHS complaints procedure.

Subsection (1)(b) of Clause 111 already makes provision for that by covering healthcare by or for an English NHS body or cross-border SHA. That means that healthcare provided by third parties—that is, primary care practitioners and independent providers—will be covered by the complaints procedure. I should, however, add that this procedure is designed to deal with complaints about the NHS and NHS patients only. Private healthcare is covered in separate regulations which are associated with the National Care Standards Commission.

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I should advise the noble Baroness that this amendment would also have the unintentional effect of extending the Secretary of State's regulation-making power to, for example, Welsh NHS trusts and local health boards as the amendment as drafted is not geographically limited to England and is not in any way linked to Clause 111(1)(a), which limits the Secretary of State's regulation-making power to English NHS bodies and cross-border SHAs. To extend the Secretary of State's regulation-making power in this way would be inconsistent with the regulation-making power given to the Assembly under Clause 111(2). So the amendment would put a small fly in the ointment in that respect.

Baroness Noakes: I thank the Minister for giving way. As there are various points to raise it might be easier if we dealt with them as we went along. Let us contrast the position of a private patient in an independent hospital who went there on a self-pay basis because the NHS waiting lists were too long with that of someone admitted for whatever reason to the private wing of an NHS hospital. The NHS patient would be dealt with by the NHS complaints system whereas the other would be dealt with by a completely different system that originates in the National Care Standards Commission. Does the Minister think that that is logical?

Baroness Andrews: It is certainly comprehensive. Both sets of patients have a right of complaint and a recourse. That is what we are aiming to achieve.

I turn to Amendment No. 382 and the issue of time limits. In reply to the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, we want the reformed complaints procedure to include time scales for dealing with complaints. I take her point regarding the CAB, which has a lot of experience in this field. Of course, it is reasonable that we address time limits. I agree with the noble Baroness that there must be a balance between imposing a time-scale that makes it impossible for complaints to be resolved properly and making sure that things are not allowed to drift. Therefore, we intend to consult widely on that aspect of regulations. In particular, we shall talk to bodies, such as the CAB, about that. We have identified time-scales as a key area where we need to gather feedback.

The current wording of Clause 113(2)(e) is sufficient to provide for regulations to set out the detail with regard to time-scales. On those grounds, Amendment No. 382 does not add value to the Bill. Obviously, CHAI will be consulting widely, not least with the Council on Tribunals, on the advice and experience that people can bring to bear on the process.

I turn now to the form of the complaint. Amendment No. 383 seeks to ensure that regulations detailing the complaints procedure provide for a right to an oral hearing, where appropriate. Amendment No. 390 also seeks to ensure that the regulations specify the circumstances in which a complaint is subject to an oral hearing. Not only do we recognise that the amendments have been made with the best of intentions, but we envisage oral hearings.

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We recognise that the parties involved in a complaint must have the opportunity to put their case. We intend to provide in regulations for an oral hearing where it is the best option for making progress and where local resolution has not been achieved. Clause 113(2)(e) enables regulations to provide for that. While on the face of it the amendments have the best intentions of the parties involved at heart, there would be some perverse consequences because it would also reduce the complainant's control over what happens rather than empowering him to make the right choice.

I must stress that we are envisaging a much more involving process. Complainants, in the stages supported by the appropriate bodies, would choose the right and most appropriate route forward for them. We want them involved as far as possible to determine how they think the situation can best be resolved. We are trying to focus proactively on seeking to facilitate resolution at various stages rather than on an invariable progression where certain procedures kick in at certain stages. Rather than specifying rigidly when an oral hearing must take place, we want to set out options for resolution after the local stage. That will allow CHAI and CSCI more flexibility to decide with the complainant the best way forward.

It may be that an independent panel involving oral representation might be one way forward if that is what people want, but there may also be other options. With that explanation, I hope that the noble Baroness will not press the amendment.

Amendments Nos. 387, 388 and 391 seek to ensure that no one who has cause to complain is left out or is prevented from doing so. I agree that the language in the regulations needs some untangling. One of the main objectives behind the provisions that we are proposing for complaints is to make the procedures more rather than less accessible. For example, we intend that people who wish to make a complaint should be able to do so just once rather than being sent all over the place. The provisions in Clause 113(5) are designed to allow for that.

The amendments seek to remove the ability for regulations to set clear parameters for the complaints procedures in terms of the complaints which may not be made or which need not be considered under matters which are excluded from consideration. Each of those three subtly different points serves a different purpose.

Obviously, we have to set parameters, but we have no intention of limiting the proper investigation of complaints about the NHS or social care. What we intend in the clauses is to ensure that the procedures are used appropriately so that, for example, other routes resolving issues such as misconduct can operate effectively alongside the complaints procedure.

Perhaps I may go through the provisions very quickly. Subsection (2)(b) simply reflects the fact that we will need to be clear about what people can and cannot complain about using the procedures. For example, social services procedures should be for complaints about social care functions. Subsection

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(2)(c) is subtly different from (2)(b) in that it allows for regulations to provide for some complaints that have been made not to be considered, rather than excluding them from being made in the first place. This might cover circumstances where an alternative route might be more appropriate to achieve resolution. For example, if a complaint brings misconduct to light, the relevant disciplinary procedures may need to be brought into play. The paragraph does not give NHS bodies or local authorities a way out of investigating a complaint properly. However, to remove it would take away the necessary flexibility.

11.15 p.m.

Baroness Noakes: I thank the Minister for giving way once again. She read out the provisions of paragraphs (b), (c) and (f), but what I sought to tease out was whether they would be used for excluding certain kinds of care. Can the Minister assure the Committee that those paragraphs will not be used by the Government for excluding the provision of long-term or other specific types of care? At face value, they appear capable of doing that.

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