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Lord Marlesford: My Lords, I thank the Minister for her answer. I fear that in many ways my overall impression is that we have not moved forwards in the 18 months since I raised the issue. In the case of the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, we have moved backwards. To the same amendment last time, he opened his speech by saying:

Various points have emerged. It was a little fatuous for the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, to make the point that he made. He seemed to ignore the common sense that the police would use in applying such laws. Furthermore, it is open to the Government and the Home Office to give precise guidance as to how such a law would be used. I am not saying for a moment that the wording is right, but I believe that the intention is right. I believe that there is a lacuna. The Minister has just emphasised again all the complicated possibilities that arise and that people have to know exactly where to find the measure. I am offering a much more general mandate to make the position perfectly clear. Of course, that mandate could be supplemented with guidance. My noble friend Lord Waddington and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, made the telling remark that there is a lack of comprehension in this area.

There is also a danger that we are not taking on board the real fear that exists in certain communities. I got that feeling from talking to Diane Abbott. I suspect that none of us is worried about people carrying guns in the areas where we live. I personally believe that an awful lot of people would be very glad to see these kinds of powers put in place and that we could rely on the police to enforce them sensibly and sensitively with the help of guidance. For that reason I should like to test the opinion of the House.

5.41 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 2) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 92; Not-Contents, 140.

Division No. 1


Alton of Liverpool, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Hanham, B.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hooper, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Liverpool, E.
Luke, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mancroft, L.
Marlesford, L. [Teller]
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Patten, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trumpington, B.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wilcox, B.


Ackner, L.
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Bledisloe, V.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dixon, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elis-Thomas, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Falkender, B.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hylton, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Lane, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lipsey, L.
Listowel, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
McCarthy, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Marsh, L.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Monson, L.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Nicol, B.
Northbourne, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Prashar, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sheldon, L.
Simon, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Varley, L.
Walpole, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Worcester, Bp.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

29 Oct 2003 : Column 307

5.52 p.m.

Clause 2 [Warrants to enter and search]:

Baroness Anelay of St Johns moved Amendment No. 3:

    Page 2, line 1, leave out "company" and insert "presence"

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I shall speak also to Amendment No. 4. I can be brief on the matter. I tabled the amendments to invite the Minister to put on record his response to questions that I asked him in Committee. He is not in his place, but never mind. I am sure that the noble Baroness will respond just as well.

Clause 2 increases the powers of persons who accompany constables executing search warrants. It gives such persons the same powers as the constable who is executing the warrant, provided that the person is,

    "in the company, and under the supervision, of a constable".

When we debated that in Committee on 30th June, I and other Members of the Committee referred to the importance of training being given to those who accompany constables in those circumstances, and that it should be clear what arrangements had been made for a disciplinary system to which the civilians should be subject.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, said (at col. 613 of the Official Report of that date) that he would write to me covering issues relating to not only civilian discipline but training. I waited with bated breath for that exciting letter and, by golly, was I made to wait.

29 Oct 2003 : Column 308

It arrived in the nick of time at lunchtime today. I now invite whichever Minister is about to respond to put that response on record, so that it may be available to the public as it was to me, if somewhat in haste. I beg to move.

Lord Renton: My Lords, I warmly support the first of my noble friend's amendments. It is a very necessary drafting amendment. In the circumstances, "company" does not seem appropriate, but "presence" is ideal. On her second amendment, I must confess that I am a little puzzled because I am not quite sure how a layperson would ever receive such training. That may be because of my ignorance.

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