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An offence under section 2 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

4 Nov 2003 : Column 699

Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent

An offence under section 4 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where it is alleged that the activity caused involved penetration within subsection (4)(a) to (d) of that section. Rape of a child under 13

An offence under section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. Attempted rape of a child under 13

An offence under section 1 of the Criminal Attempts Act 1981 (c. 47) of attempting to commit an offence under section 5 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. Assault of a child under 13 by penetration

An offence under section 6 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003. Causing or inciting a child under 13 to engage in sexual activity

An offence under section 8 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where it is alleged that an activity involving penetration within subsection (3)(a) to (d) of that section was caused. Sexual activity with a person with a mental disorder

An offence under section 31 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where it is alleged that the touching involved penetration within subsection (4)(a) to (d) of that section. Causing or inciting a person with a mental disorder to engage in sexual activity

An offence under section 32 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 where it is alleged that an activity involving penetration within subsection (4)(a) to (d) of that section was caused." Page 220, line 10, leave out paragraph 15.

Page 220, line 15, leave out paragraph 16.

Page 221, line 7, leave out paragraphs 24 to 30.

Page 222, line 15, leave out paragraph 36.

Page 223, line 19, leave out paragraph 46.

Page 223, line 24, leave out paragraph 47.

Page 224, line 15, leave out paragraphs 55 to 61.

On Question, amendments agreed to.

Lord Thomas of Gresford moved Amendment No. 155:

Leave out Schedule 4 and insert the following new Schedule—

"SCHEDULE 4QUALIFYING OFFENCES FOR PURPOSES OF PART 9PART 1LIST OF OFFENCES FOR ENGLAND AND WALES
Murder

1 Murder. Soliciting murder

2 An offence under section 4 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 (c. 100) (conspiring or soliciting to commit murder). Genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes

3 An offence under section 51 (genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes) or 52 (conduct ancillary to genocide, etc committed outside jurisdiction) of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c. 17).

PART 2LIST OF OFFENCES FOR NORTHERN IRELAND
Murder

4 Murder. Soliciting murder

5 An offence under section 4 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861 (c. 100). Genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes

4 Nov 2003 : Column 700

6 An offence under section 51 or 52 of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c. 17).

PART 3SUPPLEMENTARY
7 A reference in this Schedule to an enactment includes a reference to the enactment as enacted and as amended from time to time."

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I have presented what I want to say on the amendment, but perhaps noble Lords will permit me to reply to the comments that the noble and learned Lord the Attorney-General has just made. In particular, I draw his attention to paragraph 4.22 of the Law Commission's report, which states:

"Any exception [to the double jeopardy rule] must, however, be limited to those types of cases where the damage to the credibility of the criminal justice system by an apparently illegitimate acquittal is manifest, and so serious that it overrides the values implicit in the rule against double jeopardy".

On the noble and learned Lord's other point about whether there is a principled basis for murder as opposed to any other crime, the Law Commission, at paragraph 4.34, said that,

"murder, as the most serious form of homicide, is in a unique position and can as a matter of principle be separated off from all other offences. There is, we must accept, a potential problem with using such an analysis to justify treating murder in this way. Murder, as defined in English law, is not confined to deliberate killing".

It deals also with intent to cause serious harm. Even if most murderers are not deliberate killers, however, there is still an important sense in which deliberate killing is the core of the offence of murder. That is sufficient to justify concluding that it remains a unique offence, not merely one that is more serious than others.

The Law Commission's view on whether there is a principled distinction with murder is as I have described it. On the principle of disquiet to the public, the Law Commission is with us. For that reason, I beg to move the amendment.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, the Government's position is to resist the amendment. The amendments that have just been agreed and those that the noble Lord is moving do not admit of the principle to which he relates. The Law Commission quotations that he cited limit the position to murder; that is not what the noble Lord's amendment would do. He includes cases that do not involve death at all—soliciting murder might not; nor might war crimes and breaches of the Geneva Convention. I make no complaint about that. It is a question of balance.

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, on a point of information, genocide is covered by the Law Commission.

Lord Goldsmith: My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that one does not find the right balance by limiting the scope to murder—neither of us does. I continue to resist the amendment.

4 Nov 2003 : Column 701

Lord Thomas of Gresford: My Lords, in those circumstances, I seek to obtain the opinion of the House.

3.55 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 155) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 83; Not-Contents, 185.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Avebury, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bledisloe, V.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridges, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chorley, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Cobbold, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Dholakia, L.
Erroll, E.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Fearn, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Goodhart, L.
Hamwee, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Laird, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mar and Kellie, E. [Teller]
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Monson, L.
Neill of Bladen, L.
Newby, L.
Northover, B.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
Onslow, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Renton, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Scott of Needham Market, B. [Teller]
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Steel of Aikwood, L.
Stern, B.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strange, B.
Taverne, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Swynnerton, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tordoff, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Wedderburn of Charlton, L.
Wigoder, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Wilson of Tillyorn, L.
Worcester, Bp.

NOT-CONTENTS
Acton, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashcroft, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Astor of Hever, L.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Cameron of Lochbroom, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carter, L.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Colwyn, L.
Condon, L.
Cooke of Islandreagh, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Cox, B.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Glentoran, L.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Goudie, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Gregson, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hanham, B.
Harrison, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Inglewood, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Liverpool, E.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
MacLaurin of Knebworth, L.
Mallalieu, B.
Mar, C.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
O'Cathain, B.
Ouseley, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Pendry, L.
Peston, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Radice, L.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Rooker, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Simon, V.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Stallard, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilcox, B.
Wilkins, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.

Resolved in the negative, and amendment disagreed to accordingly.

4 Nov 2003 : Column 703

4.6 p.m.

Clause 61 [Application to Court of Appeal]:

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