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The noble Lord said: My Lords, I spoke to this amendment in the debate on Amendment No. 1A. I have nothing to add. I ask the House to agree to it. I beg to move.
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 1, at end insert Amendment No. 1C in lieu of the words so left out of the Bill.—(Lord Thomas of Gresford.)
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 1C) shall be agreed to?
(a) if the person against whom the allegation has been made waives his right to anonymity; or
(b) if it is disapplied in relation to a specific person by a magistrates' court on application by a police officer of at least the rank of inspector.""
Addington, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Ashcroft, L.
Astor of Hever, L. [Teller]
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Byford, B.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Denham, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Eden of Winton, L.
Erroll, E.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Flather, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Geddes, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Hanham, B.
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Listowel, E.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montrose, D.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Palmer, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Rawlings, B.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L. [Teller]
Russell, E.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Tope, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Burlison, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Gale, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harrison, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Chesterton, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Judd, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Morgan, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rea, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rogers of Riverside, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Temple-Morris, L.
Thornton, B.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
[*The name of a Lord who voted in both Lobbies has been removed from the voting lists.] Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
On Question, Motion, as amended, agreed to.
6.59 p.m.
2Clause 9, page 4, line 2, leave out "(A)"
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2. This group of government amendments deals with several issues; namely, minor drafting matters to tidy up certain clauses, some consequential alterations to other legislation, the extension of the Bill to Northern Ireland and Scotland and the application of Part 2 of the Bill in the services' courts. I beg to move.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment No. 2.—(Baroness Scotland of Asthal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
7 p.m.
3Clause 9, page 4, line 7, leave out from "section," to "if" in line 11
4Page 4, line 16, at end insert ", is liable, on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for life.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 3 to 8.
This group of amendments is intended to bring more consistency to the offences in the Bill with respect to the mode of trial. Some offences in the Bill, whether committed against adults or children, are so serious that trial should be on indictment only. Rape and sexual assault by penetration fall into that category.
However, many of the offences in the Bill against children or against vulnerable adults which do not require lack of consent to be proved cover behaviour of a range of seriousness. The amendments would mean that where the specified offence involves penetration by an adult of a child under 16 or of a vulnerable adult, the mode of trial should be on indictment only. Where the activity falls short of penetration, the offence should be triable either way.
Amendments Nos. 3, to 8, 27 to 30, 41 and 42, 48 and 49, 55, 61, 64 and 65, 68 and 69, 101 and 102 and 103 amend the mode of trial for the offences in Clauses 9 to 11, 27 and 28, 32 to 37 and 49, so that where the activity does not involve penetration, the offence will be triable either way. Those changes strike a sensible balance between ensuring that manifestly serious cases will always be dealt with at Crown Court while retaining a degree of flexibility about other behaviour that covers a range of seriousness.
I invite your Lordships to accept the amendments for the sake of greater consistency.
Moved, That the House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 3 to 8.—(Baroness Scotland of Asthal.)
On Question, Motion agreed to.
( ) Unless subsection (2) applies, a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years."
5Clause 10, page 4, line 26, after "section" insert ", if the touching involved—
(a) penetration of B's anus or vagina with a part of A's body or anything else,
(b) penetration of B's mouth with A's penis,
(c) penetration of A's anus or vagina with a part of B's body, or
(d) penetration of A's mouth with B's penis,"
6Page 4, line 27, at end insert—
"( ) Unless subsection (2) applies, a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years."
7Clause 11, page 4, line 37, after "section" insert ", if the activity caused or incited involved—
(a) penetration of B's anus or vagina,
(b) penetration of B's mouth with a person's penis,
(c) penetration of a person's anus or vagina with a part of B's body or by B with anything else, or
(d) penetration of a person's mouth with B's penis,"
8Page 4, line 38, at end insert—
"( ) Unless subsection (2) applies, a person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—
(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum or both;
(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 14 years."
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