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33H Page 28, line 34, after "where" insert "(a)"
33I Page 28, line 35, at end insert "and
(b) notice has been given under section 51B of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 (notices in serious or complex fraud cases) in respect of that offence or those offences."
33J Page 28, line 39, leave out "both of the following two conditions are" and insert "the following condition is"
33K Page 28, line 39, leave out "must" and insert "may"
33L Page 28, line 41, at end insert— "(3A) The judge must consult the Lord Chief Justice or a judge nominated by him before making such an order."

33M Page 28, line 42, leave out "The first" and insert "That"

20 Nov 2003 : Column 2060

33N Page 29, line 3, leave out subsection (5)
33O Page 29, line 9, leave out "both of those two conditions are" and insert "that condition is"

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 33 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 33H to 33O. When the clause returned to another place yesterday, we tabled amendments to meet concerns about safeguards and the discretion of the judge. The clause now requires consultation with the Lord Chief Justice or a judge nominated by him.

We believe that this will ensure consistency in the handling of the application and prevent non-jury trials for serious fraud cases, save where absolutely necessary. We have additionally increased the level of judicial discretion by substituting "may" for "must" in subsection (3).

We have listened with great care to the concerns expressed on this provision, not least that there should be an appropriately tight sieve to make sure that only the most difficult and complex fraud cases would be dealt with. I hope your Lordships will find that, having put on the face of the proposed Bill the need for the consultation with the Lord Chief Justice, your Lordships will feel content that that is a sufficiently secure lock.

I should say that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary, the Government and I feel that this provision, along with many others, meets the needs of the case.

Moved, That the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 33 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 33H to 33O.—(Baroness Scotland of Asthal.)

33PLord Hunt of Wirral rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 33, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 33H to 33O to the words so restored to the Bill, leave out from "House" to end and insert "do insist on its Amendment No. 33".

The noble Lord said: My Lords, as my noble friend explained earlier, Clause 42 has always been a matter of dispute between the Government and the Official Opposition. I have rehearsed the arguments very carefully indeed. The conviction rate is quoted as 92 per cent. Even with these changes, we are not sure what the clause intends to do, other than inappropriately to restrict trial by jury. The Government have a reputation for tampering with our constitutional structure. Our message is that restricting trial by jury in this way is a step too far.

Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 33, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos.

20 Nov 2003 : Column 2061

33H to 33O to the words so restored to the Bill, leave out from "House" to end and insert "do insist on its Amendment No. 33".—(Lord Hunt of Wirral.)

1.45 p.m.

Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, says on the issue. I am somewhat perplexed that he should say it as today an amendment accepting Clause 42 was tabled in the names of noble Lords opposite, which was subsequently withdrawn. We would argue that this is a perfectly proper amendment as put forward.

The noble Lord asks how many cases there were. I think I made it clear when I spoke on the previous occasion that this is not a question of raising the conviction rates but of making sure that the full nature of the criminality, which is evident in these fraud cases, is brought to book. The current way we have to deal with these matters is often piecemeal. Sometimes we have to concentrate on the main players and we are not able to go for secondary matters because of the length and the complexity. That is a matter of great difficulty.

Dealing with criminals who infiltrate our financial institutions in an improper way should be a key concern. We should use tools similar to those adopted in other common law jurisdictions to deal with this real scourge. I ask noble Lords to consider whether in all the circumstances it is right to insist on its removal.

Lord Hunt of Wirral: My Lords, just to explain, when the Government tabled the amendments to Clauses 41, 43 and 45 and then withdrew them, after having made them available to the Public Bill Office, my noble friend asked for those amendments to be tabled in our name to fulfil the agreement that had been reached. There was a misunderstanding, and the government amendments to Clause 42 were tabled in the name of my noble friend. We immediately pointed out the error; that is why the list was reprinted. I hope that that is sufficient explanation.

1.48 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 33P) shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 160; Not-Contents, 116.

Division No. 2


Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bowness, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carlile of Berriew, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chalker of Wallasey, B.
Clement-Jones, L.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Cumberlege, B.
Dholakia, L. [Teller]
Dixon-Smith, L.
Dundee, E.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geraint, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goodhart, L.
Goschen, V.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Hamwee, B.
Hanham, B.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Holme of Cheltenham, L.
Hooson, L.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Jacobs, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Kennedy of The Shaws, B.
Kimball, L.
Kingsland, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lester of Herne Hill, L.
Linklater of Butterstone, B.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lloyd of Berwick, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Mallalieu, B.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Moynihan, L.
Newby, L.
Noakes, B.
Northbourne, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Parkinson, L.
Peel, E.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Reay, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Roper, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sandberg, L.
Sandwich, E.
Scott of Needham Market, B.
Seccombe, B.
Selborne, E.
Selsdon, L.
Sharman, L.
Sharp of Guildford, B.
Sharples, B.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Wilcox, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Worcester, Bp.
Wright of Richmond, L.


Acton, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alli, L.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Billingham, B.
Blackstone, B.
Borrie, L.
Bragg, L.
Brett, L.
Bridges, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Chester, Bp.
Christopher, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Condon, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Craig of Radley, L.
Crawley, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Hannay of Chiswick, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hayman, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Laming, L.
Lawson of Blaby, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lockwood, B.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Mitchell, L.
Oxburgh, L.
Parekh, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Radice, L.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richardson of Calow, B.
Rooker, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Sewel, L.
Simon, V.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Symons of Vernham Dean, B.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

20 Nov 2003 : Column 2063

Motion, as amended, agreed to.

1.58 p.m.


34Leave out Clause 43

    The Commons insist on their disagreement to this amendment but propose the following amendments to the words so restored to the Bill—

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