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Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I beg to move that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 131C to 131T.
Noble Lords will recall that, when the matter was last before your Lordships' House, the Law Commission's draft on the amendments supplanted the previous ones, since when we have proposed certain amendments to that clause. This is very familiar territory. In this part of the Bill, we seek to reform the rules dealing with evidence of bad character and to set them on a consolidated and coherent basis for the future. Essentially, amendments accepted in this House, and on which this House has insisted, would replace the Government's proposal with the scheme drafted by the Law Commission.
We have had extensive debate on the issues involved. I hope that I have explained the extent to which the Government have drawn on the Law Commission's work. Nevertheless, it has proved extremely difficult to reach an agreement on exactly what form the statutory scheme should take. The Government propose an
Such rebalancing is necessary to ensure that the courts have the evidence and material that they need to determine the issues in the cases. However, there are clear safeguards to ensure that the interests of defendants are protected and trials remain fair. I outlined those at length during the previous debate on them.
The Government have also gone to great lengths to meet concerns about how the proposals would operate. They are reflected in the amendments proposed by the other place. They include a tighter definition of evidence of bad character, a clear requirement for the prosecution to give notice of their intention to rely on a defendant's record and making clear that juvenile convictions are to be admitted in adult proceedings unless the interests of justice require them to be admitted.
We have also sought to address concerns about the operation of Clause 93(1)(d)—the presumption that convictions for the same, or a similar, offence should be admissible. We have done so by bringing the presumption under the category of evidence relevant to the issues in the case. In doing so, we have created a closer link between that evidence and the question of propensity.
The amendments that we have tabled further clarify our intent that relevant evidence should go before the court but there is perfectly proper opportunity if that evidence is considered to have more prejudicial than probative value for it to be excluded on the discretion in exercise by the judge.
Moved, That this House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 131C to 131T.—(Baroness Scotland of Asthal.)
The noble Lord said: My Lords, for technical reasons, the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and our amendment have been grouped. I shall speak, telegraphically, to Amendment No. 121, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, will speak to Amendment No. 126. Also for technical reasons, there will be a single vote. Had there been separate votes, we would have abstained from voting on the noble Baroness's amendment.
Amendment No. 121, which would delete Clause 96, represents a substantial concession to the Government. By ceding the Law Commission's draft Bill, we, with deep reluctance, abandoned our commitment to an exclusionary presumption. There remained therefore
Moved, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 131C to 131T, leave out from "119" to end and insert ", 122 to 125 and 127 to 131, do agree with Commons Amendments Nos. 131C to 131G and 131I to 131T, but do insist on its Amendments Nos. 121 and 126 and do disagree with Commons Amendment No. 131H.—(Lord Kingsland.)
Baroness Walmsley: My Lords, in rising to support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, I shall also speak to Amendment No. 131H. I am returning to this matter because I feel so strongly that this is such a thoroughly bad Bill in respect of justice for children, for four reasons. First, Amendment No. 131H waters down a crucial immunity which children deserve because of their special status—that of having convictions used against a defendant in court which were committed when, in all other civilised countries, the child would have been below the age of criminal responsibility. Secondly, the Bill racks up sentences for children and enshrines minimum sentences in statute. For example, a 10 year-old can be given 12 years for murder. Thirdly, it brings children into the criminal justice system inappropriately in situations that would have been better dealt with in other ways through other agencies—in the drug testing provisions, for example. Finally and most fundamentally, the Bill treats children as miniature adults instead of what is needed in order to ensure justice for children, which is to enshrine the welfare of the child in the criminal justice system. For those four and many other reasons I support the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland.
Baroness Scotland of Asthal: My Lords, I have listened to the telegraphic comments of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland. I understand that he proposes to accept a majority of the Government's proposals, but that this House insists on its disagreement to two provisions. The first makes it clear that evidence of propensity can be given in a case and such evidence is already admissible in certain circumstances. However, this area of the law is complex, as I hope the noble Lord accepts. We have therefore given this issue a lot of consideration and we consider it desirable to make it clear in the Bill.
The second relates to lifting the absolute prohibition on admitting juvenile convictions in adult proceedings, which is a matter to which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has spoken. I have taken into account, as on every occasion, the concerns that the noble Baroness rightly has that things must be done in the best interests of children. The noble Baroness will know that we on the Government Benches very much share her concern and the desire to ensure that there is proper differentiation and recognition for the vulnerability of children and the
Noble Lords will know that we have shown considerable flexibility in pursuing our proposals. We believe that they constitute a sensible and coherent whole. I therefore urge this House to resist the noble Lord's Motion and to allow the amendments that have been properly passed by the other place to stand.
Lord Kingsland: My Lords, although propensity evidence has always been admissible in circumstances in which the defendant attacks the prosecution's good character, it has never been admissible as an issue in the case. That is the source of the fundamental difference between the Government and ourselves as the noble Baroness knows well. In those circumstances, I would like to test the opinion of the House.
On Question, Whether the said amendment (No. 131U) shall be agreed to?
131RPage 171, line 30, leave out "95" and insert "96"
131SPage 217, line 8, leave out "95" and insert "96"
131TPage 217, line 9, leave out "(1)" and insert "(1C)"
131ULord Kingsland rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion that the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 114 to 119 and 121 to 131 and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 131C to 131T, leave out from "119" to end and insert ", 122 to 125 and 127 to 131, do agree with Commons amendments 131C to 131G and 131I to 131T, but do insist on its Amendments Nos. 121 and 126 and do disagree with Commons Amendment No. 131H".
2.15 p.m.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Alderdice, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Barker, B.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
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Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.
Motion, as amended, agreed to.
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