House of Lords Journal 236 (Session 2002-03)

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Page 87


Volume 236      

Tuesday 17 December 2002

The House met at half-past two o’clock.

The following Lords Spiritual and Temporal were present:

Irvine of Lairg, L.
(Lord Chancellor)

Aberdare, L.
Ackner, L.
Addington, L.
Ahmed, L.
Alderdice, L.
Allenby of Megiddo, V.
Alton of Liverpool, L.
Amos, B.
Ampthill, L.
Andrews, B.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Avebury, L.
Bach, L.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Barker, B.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Beaumont of Whitley, L.
Berkeley, L.
Bernstein of Craigweil, L.
Best, L.
Bhatia, L.
Biffen, L.
Billingham, B.
Birt, L.
Blackstone, B.
Blackwell, L.
Blatch, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Boston of Faversham, L.
Bowness, L.
Brabazon of Tara, L.
Bradshaw, L.
Bragg, L.
Brennan, L.
Bridgeman, V.
Bridges, L.
Brittan of Spennithorne, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brookeborough, V.
Brookman, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Bruce of Donington, L.
Burlison, L.
Burnham, L.
Buscombe, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Campbell of Croy, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carlisle of Bucklow, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Carter, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chan, L.
Chester, Bp.
Chorley, L.
Christopher, L.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clarke of Hampstead, L.
Clement-Jones, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cobbold, L.
Cockfield, L.
Coe, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craig of Radley, L.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crickhowell, L.
Dahrendorf, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L.
Dean of Harptree, L.
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Denham, L.
Desai, L.
Dholakia, L.
Dixon, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Donoughue, L.
Dormand of Easington, L.
Dubs, L.
Dundee, E.
Eames, L.
Eatwell, L.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Emerton, B.
Erroll, E.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Evans of Watford, L.
Ezra, L.
Falkland, V.
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Fearn, L.
Ferrers, E.
Finlay of Llandaff, B.
Fitt, L.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Fraser of Carmyllie, L.
Freeman, L.
Fyfe of Fairfield, L.
Gale, B.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Geddes, L.
Geraint, L.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Gladwin of Clee, L.
Glenarthur, L.
Glentoran, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Goodhart, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Grabiner, L.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greaves, L.
Greengross, B.
Greenway, L.
Griffiths of Fforestfach, L.
Grocott, L.
Guildford, Bp.
Hamwee, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Hardy of Wath, L.
Harris of Haringey, L.
Harris of Richmond, B.
Harrison, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Healey, L.
Henley, L.
Hereford, Bp.
Higgins, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollick, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Hooper, B.
Hooson, L.
Howarth of Breckland, B.
Howe, E.
Howe of Idlicote, B.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Howie of Troon, L.
Hoyle, L.

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Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hussey of North Bradley, L.
Hylton, L.
Jacobs, L.
Janner of Braunstone, L.
Jauncey of Tullichettle, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jeger, B.
Jellicoe, E.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Joffe, L.
Jones, L.
Jopling, L.
Jordan, L.
Kilclooney, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
King of West Bromwich, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Knight of Collingtree, B.
Laird, L.
Laming, L.
Lane of Horsell, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Levy, L.
Lewis of Newnham, L.
Lindsay, E.
Lipsey, L.
Livsey of Talgarth, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McFarlane of Llandaff, B.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
McIntosh of Haringey, L.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Maclennan of Rogart, L.
McNally, L.
Maddock, B.
Maginnis of Drumglass, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar and Kellie, E.
Marlesford, L.
Marsh, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mason of Barnsley, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
May of Oxford, L.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Methuen, L.
Miller of Chilthorne Domer, B.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Mishcon, L.
Mitchell, L.
Molyneaux of Killead, L.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Morris of Manchester, L.
Moser, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Nicol, B.
Noakes, B.
Northbrook, L.
Northesk, E.
Northover, B.
Norton of Louth, L.
Oakeshott of Seagrove Bay, L.
O’Cathain, B.
O’Neill of Bengarve, B.
Onslow, E.
Orme, L.
Ouseley, L.
Owen, L.
Palmer, L.
Parekh, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patel, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Patten, L.
Paul, L.
Pearson of Rannoch, L.
Peel, E.
Pendry, L.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Phillips of Sudbury, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Plant of Highfield, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Ponsonby of Shulbrede, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Powell of Bayswater, L.
Prior, L.
Prys-Davies, L.
Pym, L.
Quirk, L.
Radice, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Randall of St. Budeaux, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Razzall, L.
Redesdale, L.
Rees, L.
Rees-Mogg, L.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Renfrew of Kaimsthorn, L.
Rennard, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Richard, L.
Rix, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rodgers of Quarry Bank, L.
Rogan, L.
Roll of Ipsden, L.
Rooker, L.
Roper, L.
Rosslyn, E.
Rotherwick, L.
Russell, E.
Russell-Johnston, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Turville, L.
St. John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sandwich, E.
Sawyer, L.
Seccombe, B.
Sharples, B.
Sheldon, L.
Shutt of Greetland, L.
Simon, V.
Simon of Glaisdale, L.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Smith of Clifton, L.
Smith of Gilmorehill, B.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Southwark, Bp.
Stern, B.
Stevens of Ludgate, L.
Stewartby, L.
Stodart of Leaston, L.
Stoddart of Swindon, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Strabolgi, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Sutherland of Houndwood, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Taylor of Warwick, L.
Tebbit, L.
Temple-Morris, L.
Tenby, V.
Thomas of Gresford, L.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Thomas of Walliswood, B.
Thomson of Monifieth, L.
Thornton, B.
Tomlinson, L.
Tope, L.
Tordoff, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Turnberg, L.
Turner of Camden, B.
Uddin, B.
Vinson, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Wallace of Saltaire, L.
Walmsley, B.
Walpole, L.
Walton of Detchant, L.
Warner, L.
Warnock, B.
Watson of Richmond, L.
Weatherill, L.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wigoder, L.
Wilberforce, L.
Wilcox, B.

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Wilkins, B.
Williams of Crosby, B.
Williams of Elvel, L.
Williams of Mostyn, L.
Williamson of Horton, L.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wright of Richmond, L.

PRAYERS were read by the Lord Bishop of Portsmouth.

1.Royal Assent—The Lord Chancellor notified the Queen’s Assent to the following Acts:
Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Actc. 43
Appropriation (No. 2) Actc. 44

2.Barony of De Mauley in the Peerage of the United Kingdom—The Petition of Rupert Charles Ponsonby claiming to have succeeded to the Barony of De Mauley in the Peerage of the United Kingdom and praying that the Clerk of the Parliaments might be directed to enter the petitioner as Baron De Mauley on his register of hereditary peers maintained under Standing Order 10(5) was presented and was referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report upon to the House pursuant to Standing Order 11.

Judicial Business

3.Temple (formerly a child but now a patient who sues by his mother and litigation friend Carol Barbara Temple) (FC) (Petitioner) v. South Manchester Health Authority (Respondents)—The petition of Neil Temple praying for leave to appeal was presented and referred to an Appeal Committee. The petitioner’s certificate of public funding was lodged.
4.Marcic (Respondent) v. Thames Water Utilities Limited (Appellants)—The petition of the appellants praying that the time for lodging the statement and appendix and setting down the cause for hearing might be extended to 14th January next (the agents for the respondent consenting thereto) was presented; and it was ordered as prayed.
5.Regina v. Ashworth Hospital Authority (Appellants) and others (Respondents) ex parte H and one other action—It was ordered that the appeal be dismissed in accordance with Standing Order V, the appellants having failed to give security for costs by 11th November.
6.Appeal Committee—The 17th Report was made; the Appeal Committee reported that they had met and had heard Counsel; the report was agreed to and the following Orders were made—

Allied Dunbar Assurance plc (Respondents) v. Homebase Limited (Petitioners) and others—That leave to appeal be refused; and that the petitioners do pay to the respondents the costs of the petition, the amount thereof to be certified by the Clerk of the Parliaments if not agreed between the parties.

Eastwood and another (Petitioners) v. Magnox Electric plc (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 31st December.

RCO Support Services Limited (Petitioners) v. Unison and others (Respondents)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 31st December.

In re O and N (minors) (FC)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 31st December.

In re B (minors) (2002) (FC)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 31st December.

Regina v. Police Complaints Authority (Respondents) ex parte Green (FC) (Petitioner)—That leave to appeal be given; and that the petition of appeal be lodged by 31st December.


7.Command Papers—The following papers were presented to the House by command of Her Majesty and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Finance—2002 Spending Review: Departmental Investment Strategies;
2.Pensions—Simplicity, security and choice: Working and saving for retirement: Government consultation document;
3.Contingent Liability—Minute concerning contingent liabilities remaining with the Ministry of Defence following the sale of a minority stake in QinetiQ to the Carlyle Group.
8.Regulatory Reform—The following order was laid before the House under section 4(2) of the Regulatory Reform Act 2001 and referred to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee:

Draft Regulatory Reform (Special Occasions Licensing) Order 2002, together with a statement by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

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9.Negative Instruments—The following instruments were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Withholding and Withdrawal of Support (Travel Assistance and Temporary Accommodation) Regulations 2002, laid under the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002;
2.Race Relations Act 1976 (General Statutory Duty: Code of Practice) (Scotland) Order 2002, laid under the Race Relations Act 1976;
3. (i)Air Quality Limit Values (Amendment) Regulations 2002—(3117)
(ii)National Emission Ceilings Regulations 2002—(3118)
 laid under the European Communities Act 1972;
4.Tax Credits (Notice of Appeal) Regulations 2002, laid under the Tax Credits Act 2002;
5.Social Security Contributions (Decisions and Appeals) (Amendment) Regulations 2002, laid under the Social Security Contributions (Transfer of Functions, etc.) Act 1999;
6.Public Lending Right Scheme 1982 (Commencement of Variations) Order 2002, laid under the Public Lending Right Act 1979;
7.National Lottery (Licence Fees) (Amendment) Order 2002, laid under the National Lottery etc. Act 1993;
8.Child Support Appeals (Jurisdiction of Courts) Order (Northern Ireland) 2002, laid under the Child Support (Northern Ireland) Order 1991.
10.Papers not subject to parliamentary proceedings—The following papers were laid before the House and ordered to lie on the Table:
1.Hertfordshire (Coroners’ Districts) Order 2002, laid under the Coroners Act 1988;
2.Mortality Statistics: Review for 2001 of the Registrar General on deaths by cause, sex and age in England and Wales, laid under the Registration Service Act 1953.

Select Committee Reports

11.Science and Technology—It was ordered that the evidence taken by Sub-Committee I (Fighting Infection) on 15th and 29th October and 5th November be printed. (HL Papers 23–i, 23–ii and 23–iii)
12. Statutory Instruments—The 5th Report from the Joint Committee was made on certain statutory instruments, including the following affirmative instrument:
 Draft National Endowment for Science, Technology and the Arts (Increase of Endowment) Order 2003 ;

it was ordered that the Report be printed. (HL Paper 25)

13.Procedure of the House—The First Report from the Select Committee was made (see appendix) and ordered to be printed. (HL Paper 26)
14.Constitution Committee—The following reports from the Select Committee were made and ordered to be printed:

Crime (International Co-operation) Bill [HL]; (First Report–HL Paper 27)

Devolution: inter-institutional relations in the United Kingdom. (2nd Report–HL Paper 28)

15.European Union—The following Reports from the Select Committee were made and ordered to be printed, together with the Minutes of Evidence:

EU-Russia Relations; (3rd Report–HL Paper 29)

Evidence by the Minister for Europe, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, on the Brussels European Council. (4th Report–HL Paper 30)

Public Business

16.Licensing Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed for two statements; the House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed.
17.Access to Justice Act 1999 (Solicitors’ Practising Certificates) Order 2002—It was moved by the Lord Bassam of Brighton, on behalf of the Baroness Scotland of Asthal, that the draft Order laid before the House on 13th November be approved; after debate, the motion was agreed to.

The House was adjourned during pleasure.
The House was resumed.

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18.Licensing Bill [HL]—The House again resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the House was resumed after amendment 85.

The House was adjourned at twenty-five minutes past ten o’clock
till tomorrow, half-past two o’clock.



The Committee met at half-past three o’clock.

Waste and Emissions Trading Bill [HL]—The bill was considered in the Grand Committee; amendments were moved and (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn; the Committee was adjourned after amendment 47.

The Committee was adjourned at fourteen minutes before eight o’clock.


First Report from the Select Committee
on Procedure of the House


By the Select Committee on Procedure of the House

Ordered to Report:

1. Relevance of supplementary questions and answers

The Committee has noted an increasing tendency for irrelevant supplementary questions to be asked and answered. We remind the House of the guidance in the Companion to the Standing Orders (paragraph 4.96):

“Supplementary questions should be confined to the subject of the original question, and ministers should not answer irrelevant questions.”

2. Attendance by speakers in debates

The Committee has also observed since the start of this session a frequent disregard of the customs of the House in relation to attendance at debate. These are clearly set out in paragraphs 4.23 to 4.25 of the Companion to the Standing Orders:

“4.23 Members of the House taking part in a debate are expected to attend the greater part of that debate. It is considered discourteous for Members not to be present for the opening speeches, for at least the speech before and that following their own, and for the winding-up speeches. Members who become aware in advance that they are unlikely to be able to stay until the end of a debate should remove their names from the list of speakers. Ministers may decide not to answer, orally or in writing, points made by a speaker who does not stay to hear the minister’s closing speech.

4.24 There are reasons for these customs. Members who have missed the speeches before their own will not know what has already been said and so points may be repeated or missed. Members who leave soon after speaking are lacking in courtesy to others, who may wish to question, or reply to, points they have raised. Debate may degenerate into a series of set speeches if speakers do not attend throughout.

4.25 It is, however, recognised that some Members may have commitments related to the judicial or committee work of the House which may prevent them from being able to attend as much of the debate as might otherwise be expected.”

Recently, some speakers have not only failed to stay for the “greater part” of a debate but have been absent during the opening or closing speeches. We remind the House that this is contrary to well-established custom and that Lords who find themselves unable to stay until the end of a debate should normally withdraw their names from the list, and not simply apologise when beginning their speeches.

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3. Length of interventions on statements

The Companion to the Standing Orders (paragraph 4.81) States: “Ministerial statements are made for the information of the House, and although brief comments and questions from all quarters of the House are allowed, statements should not be made the occasion for an immediate debate”.

The Committee has noted recent instances of interventions from backbenchers which are far from brief. We remind the House that, with a twenty-minute limit on backbench questions and answers, long interventions and long replies are unfair to others who may wish to speak.

4. Time limit for submitting Private Notice Questions

At present a Private Notice Question has to be submitted to the Leader of the House before 12 noon, but before 10 a.m. on a day when the House sits before 1 p.m. This means that the earlier time limit now applies on Thursdays when the House sits at 11 a.m. even when Starred Questions are not taken until 3 p.m.

Accordingly we recommend that the earlier time limit should apply only on days when Starred Questions (if any) are to be taken before 1 p.m.

5. Time for presentation of bills

Another consequence of the new arrangements for Thursday sittings is that, under Standing Order 42(3), bills can no longer be presented after Starred Questions in the afternoon. That paragraph is as follows:

“(3) Bills may be presented either at the beginning or end of Public Business. Bills brought from the House of Commons may be read the First time at any convenient time during Public Business.”

We recommend that the Standing Order should be amended by the addition of a new second sentence: “On Thursdays Bills may also be presented after Starred Questions in the afternoon.”

6. The Companion to the Standing Orders

The Committee has approved the publication of a new edition of the Companion to the Standing Orders to take account of significant changes since the publication of the 18th edition in October 2000. The changes agreed by the House on 24 July 2002 on the basis of the Report of the Leader’s Group on the Working Practices of the House and the 5th Report from this Committee, Session 2001–02, were for a trial period of two sessions. The changes will be incorporated in the new edition, with footnotes to show that they are for a trial period.