London Local Authorities Bill [HL]
Tuesday 18 February 2003
480. MR BLACKWELL: We do. We do also prosecute the
organisers in circumstances where we inform them of where the
poster is and ----
481. CHAIRMAN: I was going to ask, if they have given
their consent to where, you do not have to say the particular
one at number 37?
482. MR BLACKWELL: We do, yes.
483. CHAIRMAN: I would, again, wish you well when
this thing goes through in the enforcement.
484. MR BLACKWELL: These provisions will make it
easier because it will put the onus upon somebody who derives
benefit to do something rather than just saying to someone "Take
it down" so as to avail themselves of this defence. They
do actually have to make sure it is taken down.
485. CHAIRMAN: If it is a pop star himself or herself
who is trying to promote a record, which is often what they are,
I think, would you be able to get up to that person and say "You
must have known that your record was being promoted, it is being
promoted for your benefit, you are guilty"?
486. MR BLACKWELL: Theoretically, yes. In practice
we would go to the company responsible for promoting the album
or the concert.
487. LORD TORDOFF: I just wondered, could you actually
explain to us what this amendment precisely seeks to do?
488. MR LEWIS: As I said, at the moment the defence
is that the defendant proves that the flyposter was displayed
without his knowledge or consent. So we are introducing two new
alternative defences. The first one is part of a defence which
already exists - ie, the poster was displayed without his knowledge.
489. MR SAUNDERS: Does that mean displayed originally
without his knowledge or continued to be displayed without his
490. MR LEWIS: Both.
491. MR SAUNDERS: So once he knows about it he cannot
defend a continuing offence by saying "It is without my knowledge",
now he knows.
492. MR BLACKWELL: That is right. Then you move on
to the second limb of the defence, which permits him to say "But
I then took all reasonable steps to avoid the commission of the
493. MR SAUNDERS: So as soon as he knows, then he
has got to switch and also operate the second defence.
494. MR BLACKWELL: Yes.
495. CHAIRMAN: You see these things all over the
place and for the same event or the same record. Do you have to
say individually, each one, that there is one here, there is one
496. MR BLACKWELL: We would and we do. At the moment.
497. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Moving on?
498. MR LEWIS: Moving on to Clause 34, the provision
of information to authorised officer, this clause mirrors a clause
in the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Bill
which your Lordship has already dealt with. There has been some
comment on this clause but all the concerns expressed by Mr Saunders
have been met by amendments. The clause will be particularly useful
in the context of unlicensed street trading in the West End.
499. Repeat offenders constantly give council officers
false names when an offence is investigated, resulting in additional
cost and delay in prosecution cases. In future cases if a false
name is given an additional offence will arise when the defendant
is eventually found and prosecuted. The threat of being prosecuted
for this additional offence should provide an incentive to provide
the correct information.