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Lord Falconer of Thoroton: My Lords, I think that we have made it clear. No consensus was reached. It was not possible to put forward a concluded—

A Noble Lord: Answer the question.

Lord Falconer of Thoroton: Excuse me, my Lords; I am answering the question. It was not possible to put forward a concluded consensus view. In those circumstances, these measures were taken to put the House on a stable and coherent basis.

Lord Strathclyde: My Lords, in which case the answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, is that there is no promise of further reform; and that no doubt will be noted.

This has been a long day and there have been some excellent speeches. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, said that this is the first time that we have been able to debate these issues since the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor made his announcement on 18th September. It will not be the last. This has been a useful curtain-raiser to a Session whose hallmark will be these sorts of constitutional debates. The quality of the speeches no doubt will improve; so will the disagreement. However, one useful sign that we have received from the noble Baroness the Lord President and Leader of the House and the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor is that they wish to turn their backs on consensus and on consultation. That is what my humble amendment calls for. I very much hope that the House will support it.

2 Dec 2003 : Column 295

10 p.m.

On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 188; Not-Contents, 108.

Division No. 1

CONTENTS

Ackner, L.
Alexander of Weedon, L.
Ampthill, L.
Anelay of St Johns, B.
Arran, E.
Astor, V.
Astor of Hever, L.
Attlee, E.
Baker of Dorking, L.
Bell, L.
Belstead, L.
Biffen, L.
Blaker, L.
Blatch, B.
Bridgeman, V.
Brigstocke, B.
Brooke of Sutton Mandeville, L.
Brougham and Vaux, L.
Buscombe, B.
Byford, B.
Caithness, E.
Campbell of Alloway, L.
Carnegy of Lour, B.
Carr of Hadley, L.
Carrington, L.
Cavendish of Furness, L.
Chadlington, L.
Chalfont, L.
Chester, Bp.
Cobbold, L.
Colville of Culross, V.
Colwyn, L.
Cope of Berkeley, L. [Teller]
Courtown, E.
Cox, B.
Craigavon, V.
Crathorne, L.
Crawford and Balcarres, E.
Crickhowell, L.
Darcy de Knayth, B.
Deedes, L.
Denham, L.
Dixon-Smith, L.
Donaldson of Lymington, L.
Dundee, E.
Eccles of Moulton, B.
Eden of Winton, L.
Elles, B.
Elliott of Morpeth, L.
Elton, L.
Feldman, L.
Ferrers, E.
Flather, B.
Fookes, B.
Forsyth of Drumlean, L.
Fowler, L.
Freeman, L.
Freyberg, L.
Gardner of Parkes, B.
Garel-Jones, L.
Geddes, L.
Gilmour of Craigmillar, L.
Glentoran, L.
Goschen, V.
Gray of Contin, L.
Greenway, L.
Hanham, B.
Hanningfield, L.
Harris of Peckham, L.
Hayhoe, L.
Henley, L.
Higgins, L.
Hodgson of Astley Abbotts, L.
Hogg, B.
Home, E.
Howe, E.
Howe of Aberavon, L.
Howell of Guildford, L.
Hunt of Wirral, L.
Hurd of Westwell, L.
Hylton, L.
Inglewood, L.
Jenkin of Roding, L.
Jopling, L.
Keith of Castleacre, L.
Kimball, L.
King of Bridgwater, L.
Kingsland, L.
Kirkham, L.
Laing of Dunphail, L.
Laird, L.
Lamont of Lerwick, L.
Lang of Monkton, L.
Listowel, E.
Liverpool, E.
Lloyd-Webber, L.
Lucas, L.
Luke, L.
Lyell, L.
McAlpine of West Green, L.
McColl of Dulwich, L.
Macfarlane of Bearsden, L.
MacGregor of Pulham Market, L.
Mackay of Clashfern, L.
Mancroft, L.
Mar, C.
Marlesford, L.
Masham of Ilton, B.
Mayhew of Twysden, L.
Miller of Hendon, B.
Monro of Langholm, L.
Monson, L.
Montagu of Beaulieu, L.
Montrose, D.
Moore of Lower Marsh, L.
Mowbray and Stourton, L.
Moynihan, L.
Murton of Lindisfarne, L.
Naseby, L.
Newton of Braintree, L.
Noakes, B.
Northesk, E.
Norton of Louth, L.
O'Cathain, B.
Onslow, E.
Oppenheim-Barnes, B.
Palmer, L.
Palumbo, L.
Park of Monmouth, B.
Patten, L.
Peel, E.
Perry of Southwark, B.
Peyton of Yeovil, L.
Pilkington of Oxenford, L.
Plumb, L.
Plummer of St. Marylebone, L.
Portsmouth, Bp.
Prior, L.
Rawlings, B.
Rawlinson of Ewell, L.
Reay, L.
Rees, L.
Renton, L.
Renton of Mount Harry, L.
Roberts of Conwy, L.
Rotherwick, L.
Ryder of Wensum, L.
Saatchi, L.
Sainsbury of Preston Candover, L.
St. John of Bletso, L.
St John of Fawsley, L.
Saltoun of Abernethy, Ly.
Sanderson of Bowden, L.
Seccombe, B. [Teller]
Selkirk of Douglas, L.
Selsdon, L.
Sharples, B.
Shaw of Northstead, L.
Shrewsbury, E.
Skelmersdale, L.
Slim, V.
Slynn of Hadley, L.
Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, L.
Sterling of Plaistow, L.
Strange, B.
Strathclyde, L.
Swinfen, L.
Tanlaw, L.
Tebbit, L.
Thatcher, B.
Thomas of Gwydir, L.
Trefgarne, L.
Trumpington, B.
Tugendhat, L.
Ullswater, V.
Vinson, L.
Vivian, L.
Waddington, L.
Wade of Chorlton, L.
Wakeham, L.
Waldegrave of North Hill, L.
Walker of Worcester, L.
Walpole, L.
Wilcox, B.
Willoughby de Broke, L.
Wolfson, L.
Wolfson of Sunningdale, L.
Young of Graffham, L.

NOT-CONTENTS

Ahmed, L.
Alli, L.
Amos, B. (Lord President)
Andrews, B.
Archer of Sandwell, L.
Ashley of Stoke, L.
Ashton of Upholland, B.
Bach, L.
Barnett, L.
Bassam of Brighton, L.
Berkeley, L.
Blackstone, B.
Boothroyd, B.
Borrie, L.
Brett, L.
Brooke of Alverthorpe, L.
Brooks of Tremorfa, L.
Burlison, L.
Campbell-Savours, L.
Carter, L.
Chandos, V.
Clark of Windermere, L.
Clinton-Davis, L.
Cohen of Pimlico, B.
Corbett of Castle Vale, L.
Crawley, B.
David, B.
Davies of Coity, L.
Davies of Oldham, L. [Teller]
Dean of Thornton-le-Fylde, B.
Desai, L.
Dixon, L.
Eatwell, L.
Elder, L.
Evans of Parkside, L.
Evans of Temple Guiting, L.
Falconer of Thoroton, L. (Lord Chancellor)
Farrington of Ribbleton, B.
Faulkner of Worcester, L.
Filkin, L.
Gale, B.
Gibson of Market Rasen, B.
Gilbert, L.
Golding, B.
Goldsmith, L.
Gordon of Strathblane, L.
Gould of Potternewton, B.
Graham of Edmonton, L.
Grantchester, L.
Greengross, B.
Grocott, L. [Teller]
Harris of Haringey, L.
Haskel, L.
Hilton of Eggardon, B.
Hogg of Cumbernauld, L.
Hollis of Heigham, B.
Howells of St. Davids, B.
Hoyle, L.
Hughes of Woodside, L.
Hunt of Kings Heath, L.
Irvine of Lairg, L.
Jay of Paddington, B.
Jones, L.
Kirkhill, L.
Layard, L.
Lea of Crondall, L.
Lofthouse of Pontefract, L.
Macdonald of Tradeston, L.
McIntosh of Hudnall, B.
MacKenzie of Culkein, L.
Mackenzie of Framwellgate, L.
Mackie of Benshie, L.
Marsh, L.
Massey of Darwen, B.
Merlyn-Rees, L.
Mitchell, L.
Morgan, L.
Morgan of Huyton, B.
Morris of Aberavon, L.
Nicol, B.
Parekh, L.
Patel of Blackburn, L.
Pendry, L.
Pitkeathley, B.
Prys-Davies, L.
Puttnam, L.
Ramsay of Cartvale, B.
Rendell of Babergh, B.
Richard, L.
Rooker, L.
Sawyer, L.
Scotland of Asthal, B.
Simon, V.
Smith of Leigh, L.
Stone of Blackheath, L.
Taylor of Blackburn, L.
Thornton, B.
Turnberg, L.
Uddin, B.
Varley, L.
Warner, L.
Warwick of Undercliffe, B.
Whitaker, B.
Whitty, L.
Wilkins, B.
Winston, L.
Woolmer of Leeds, L.
Young of Old Scone, B.

Resolved in the affirmative, and amendment agreed to accordingly.

2 Dec 2003 : Column 297

10.13 p.m.

Baroness Williams of Crosby rose to move, as an amendment to the Motion for an humble Address, at the end of the Address to insert "but regrets the decision of Your Majesty's Government to propose changes to the House of Lords which repudiate their previous commitment to create a more democratic and more representative House; and calls on Your Majesty's Government to introduce legislation which, while ending hereditary membership of the House, will ensure a majority of Members of the House are democratically elected."

The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I want simply to say that the reforms mentioned by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor were largely inspired by the party on these Benches, and that we regard the argument that we presented for a democratic House of Lords as, with great respect, not having been responded to in any adequate way. I beg to move.

Moved, as an amendment to the Motion for an humble Address, at the end of the Address to insert "but regrets the decision of Your Majesty's Government to propose changes to the House of Lords which repudiate their previous commitment to create a more democratic and more representative House; and calls on Your Majesty's Government to introduce legislation which, while ending hereditary membership of the House, will ensure a majority of Members of the House are democratically elected."—(Baroness Williams of Crosby.)

On Question, Whether the said amendment shall be agreed to?

Their Lordships divided: Contents, 36; Not-Contents, 141.


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