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Baroness Buscombe moved Amendment No. 23:

Page 3, line 2, at end insert—

"( ) In the case of an application under section 1(1) from a person who is married, a Gender Recognition Panel must take evidence from the spouse and children of the applicant before making any determination under section 1.
( ) Evidence from the spouse or children may include a report from a chartered psychologist or a registered medical practitioner on the effect of issuing a certificate on the spouse or children of the applicant.
( ) The spouse or children of an applicant shall have the right to offer oral and written evidence to a Gender Recognition Panel and, before issuing a certificate, the Panel shall have due regard to the effect of issuing such a certificate on the spouse or children of an applicant.
( ) In the case of an application under section 1(1) from any unmarried person a Gender Recognition Panel may take evidence from the partner or children of the applicant before making any determination under section 1.
( ) In the case of minor children evidence may be given by a representative appointed on their behalf."

The noble Baroness said: In moving this amendment, I shall also speak to Amendments Nos. 61, 69 and 74. This set of amendments are designed to further address the problem to which I drew attention on Second Reading—that of balancing the rights of transsexual persons with the rights of third parties affected by the actions of the transsexual. In particular, the rights of the spouses and children of the transsexual need additional protection. There is barely a nod in their direction throughout the Bill as it currently stands. Worse than that, the spouse is put in the extremely awkward position once an interim gender recognition certificate is granted of having to obtain a divorce and therefore break up the family.

Given the impact that granting a gender recognition certificate will have on family life, we believe that the family should at least be given the opportunity to express their opinion. Amendment No. 23 would give the panel a statutory obligation to hear evidence from the spouse and children of an applicant to give them a chance to have their say in this process that would bring about such a fundamental change to their lives. The evidence may include a report by a psychologist or a doctor. The provision recognises the trauma that such a process could initiate and allows weight to be given to the health and psychological well-being of the family members involved. To that end, the panel must have due regard to the effect on family members of issuing a certificate before it does so. The amendment would also be beneficial by providing the panel with added material on the history and psychological background of a transsexual person, enabling the panel to gain a more complete picture of the circumstances surrounding a particular application.

Amendments Nos. 61, 69 and 74 would make provisions in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland so that, with the consent of the individual holding a gender recognition certificate or following their death, a child or grandchild could be provided with a copy of the original birth certificate. That would save children or grandchildren considerable embarrassment and prevent them having to go into detailed personal explanations to account for having two female or two male parents or grandparents. That

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is particularly important in cases in which documents must be produced to show evidence of the place of birth of parents or grandparents—when seeking nationality or taking up residence overseas for employment purposes, for example.

The amendments include a condition that the holder of a gender repetition certificate must have given consent if they are alive, because a person who has gone to great lengths to obtain such a certificate will understandably be reluctant to have original copies of their birth certificate in use. The amendments would go further to protect the rights of the intimate family of a transsexual and, alongside the amendment to give spouses and children the opportunity to give evidence to the panel, the Bill would move closer to a position that protected the rights of all individuals affected rather than just those of the transsexual person. I look forward to hearing the Minister's response and I beg to move.

Lord Carlile of Berriew: I am strongly sympathetic to Amendments Nos. 61, 69 and 74. I have a grown-up daughter who lives in the United States of America. My wife and I spend quite a lot of time going to offices in this country to obtain transcripts of various kinds to prove that she is who she is and we are who we are and that our grandchildren are as they purport to be, despite their very young age. That would seem to be an entirely appropriate target of the legislation, even if the words of those later amendments are not correct. However, with the greatest respect to the noble Baroness, I disagree with Amendment No. 23 for the following reasons. I would understand her amendment better had she inserted some kind of additional public interest test into Clause 2. She has not done so and nobody else has sought to do so. There is no public interest test there.

Clause 2 contains a set of subjective tests that relate to the social and medical condition of the applicant for the certificate. The effect of the items set out in Amendment No. 23 on the tests in Clause 2 is difficult to understand. There is no logical connection between them. What is the tribunal supposed to do with the evidence obtained under those tests? The answer is self-evident. There is really nothing that it can do with them. Therefore, they are otiose requirement because they do not relate to the medical condition of the applicant.

This House is full of people with extraordinary ranges of experience. Part of my experience, which I am delighted to have put behind me donkey's years ago now, is appearing for one side or the other in defended divorce cases in the courts. There was nothing less attractive than appearing in such cases because, having earned one's money appearing before a judge who was understandably irascible at having to hear in a public forum—almost literally—who washed the dirty linen, one was left mitigating nothing and simply adding to the heat of the occasion and the disagreement between the parties. Amendment No. 23 would introduce an unwelcome element of a contested hearing into a situation that may already be utterly fraught with difficulty. A contested refusal would not

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mitigate an already difficult situation. In sheer practical as well as logical terms therefore, with respect to the noble Baroness whose aims are laudable and totally understandable, I fear that the situation would be made worse rather than better.

The Lord Bishop of Winchester: I am grateful, both for the amendments tabled by the noble Baroness and the response by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile. I am very interested in that response. My sense was to be warmly supportive of the other three amendments in the group and of Amendment No. 23, but with the suggestion that the word "must" in the first paragraph of Amendment No. 23 is too strong. I notice that the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, mentioned offering opportunity or something of that kind, because such people may not wish to give evidence. I would argue that they should be offered the opportunity.

I can see the strength of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, especially if the end product were contested refusal. The noble Lord and others who are lawyers will know better than I, but I have a sense that "due regard" has some legal meaning. It would be perfectly in order, supposing that the Bill becomes law, for a recognition panel to give due regard and so judge that, in the circumstances, it would be proper for the person to go forward in such a way.

From personal experience I am aware of the results of more than one case—although I have particular awareness of one—in which a person went through the process and lived entirely as a transgender person. Although the marriage was sustained, it led to an absolute breakdown with children, grandchildren and siblings. I have no doubt that there are others involving similar pain.

I imagine that if the process were defined in law, the panel might find itself engaged in encouraging various types of mediation, second thoughts, questions about whether this was the right ultimate step to take or whether there were steps to shorten the process that might meet that person's needs—if I can put it that way—and save their relationships. The marriage relationship is one thing, but children and grandchildren are also a serious matter. I do not know that the process is as cut and dried as the noble Lord suggested, although I recognise the force of his point.

Lord Tebbit: I hope that this does not unduly unnerve the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, but I think that he is right about Amendment No. 23 and about Amendments Nos. 61 and 69. Since this Bill is about recklessly creating rights for a particular category of people, regardless of reality and of the effect upon other people and institutions, the logic of Amendment No. 23 is that considerations about the family and children of such persons have no place in this Bill at all. This Bill is not about them; it is about granting this particular group of people rights regardless of the effect on other institutions or people. The noble Lord, Lord Carlile, is right.

On Amendments Nos. 61 and 69, the noble Lord and my noble friend are also absolutely right. Surely, it is manifestly absurd that, if a child or grandchild sees

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that their mother or grandmother is engaged in proceedings that will lead to them being recategorised as a man and that a new birth certificate will be issued to say that the child's mother is now a man, the child would be very foolish indeed—if he were old enough and wide-awake enough—not to go at once and procure copies of the true birth certificate, setting out the true facts. Otherwise, as has been said, he would be in the awkward position of having to explain why he had a birth certificate stating that his mother was born a man and always had been a man.

Since the child can do that—if he is wide enough awake and thinks about it—it would be entirely unfair on other children and grandchildren who are perhaps not old enough to see the implications of what is happening to say, "You missed the date. Now you can't have a copy of the birth certificate. Your elder brother and sister have already got a copy, but you can't have one". Quite clearly, that is manifestly absurd, as I am sure the Minister will accept.

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