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Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: In over 20 years in the Palace of Westminster I have often felt that what one has to say as someone who comes from a small community or a small geographical area of the United Kingdom is not given the same degree of importance as that said by someone who comes from a larger geographical area. In this respect, I am disappointed that the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, has not taken up a single, solitary point that I made when I introduced the amendment. I know that that was not deliberate.
I listened to his general, clever, reasonable response and it was quite convincing. But sadly I do not live in a totally reasonably environment; I live in an environment where there is still an underlying suspicion, where there are differences between different religious traditions and differences between political parties. I was pleased that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, endorsed what I said about my district council area. The reason I told that story was because I wanted it understood that what we had achieved as elected representatives was undermined by well intentioned, but quite foolish, legislation pertaining to the independent element of district police partnerships. We are being driven back towards an entrenchment of religious or political considerations. The noble Lord, Lord Fitt, has very forcefully indicated that that is the case.
The situation is changing in Northern Ireland and I tend to agree more with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mayhew, about judges' ability to live cheek by
jowl. Yes, of course, they have been under threat from terrorists. The fact that they have police guards—the noble and learned Lord said that they go to the supermarkets, to rugby clubs, to soccer clubs and wherever else with their police guards—indicates that they come from within our society and that they move back and forward within all aspects of that society. Moreover—this is the more up-to-date position—the chief constable is now in the process of trying to remove such guards from judges because he believes that our society is becoming more tolerant.There are important issues that I believe need to be taken into consideration. I shall conclude with the point that I made earlier. In the district police partnership in Dungannon the independent element is being forced to be proxy for the absent Sinn Fein councillors. That is the reality. What does the system do to find proxies for absent Sinn Fein councillors? It says that if you are a Catholic you will do. None of my Catholic friends is a Sinn Fein supporter. A huge majority within the Catholic tradition disapproves of everything that Sinn Fein and the IRA stood for. Hence, that particular situation is discouraging and it is dismantling what we have attempted to achieve.
I would like the noble Lord, Lord Filkin, to contemplate that and to contemplate whether, by putting in this unnecessary qualification "Subject to", he will improve by one jot, one iota, the situation that we should have, in which judges are appointed and the commission's attention is very firmly drawn to the fact that they should be appointed solely on the basis of merit. With no qualifications and no political compromise, let us see whether Northern Ireland can be allowed to work without continuously being dragged back to religion and politics on a day-to-day basis.
The Deputy Chairman of Committees: Does the noble Lord seek to withdraw the amendment or to press it?
Lord Maginnis of Drumglass: I beg leave to withdraw the amendment at this stage. I take my lead from what other noble Lords have done so far.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Lord Kingsland moved Amendment No. 28:
- Page 2, line 26, after "a" insert "continuing"
The noble Lord said: Amendment No. 28 is grouped with Amendment No. 29. They both concern, as did the previous amendment, Clause 3 which is entitled:
- "Duty of Commission to secure judiciary reflective of the community".
I thank the Minister for the opportunity of talking to his civil servants before the Committee stage of the Bill. One topic that we discussed was the definition of "reflective". I am pleased to see that all four of the
noble Lord's civil servants in the Box are ladies. It may be said that the department has overachieved in terms of the definition.On that occasion we discussed the department's view of the definition. Helpfully, my attention was drawn to the Justice (Northern Ireland) Act 2002, Schedule 2, paragraph 5, sub-paragraph (3). It concerns the annual report that the commission must make following its establishment. Sub-paragraph (3) states:
- "The information to be included about any persons in an annual report must include information about their gender, age, ethnic origins and community background and the part of Northern Ireland (if any) with which they regard themselves as being most closely associated".
As the discussion continued with the Minister's advisers, it was clear to me that their view about the principal purpose of the word "reflective" was to put gender, age and ethnic origins as the three primary factors in determining the issues which should be considered by the Judicial Appointments Commission. I shall be most grateful if the Minister, in responding to my observations, will either confirm or develop that point in the context of paragraph 5(3).
I turn to Clause 3 of the Bill. The Minister has already made it clear that the expression,
- "solely on the basis of merit",
- "the Commission must engage in a programme of action designed to secure, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, that appointments to listed judicial offices are such that those holding such offices are reflective of the community in Northern Ireland".
- "As part of that programme of action the Commission must, so far as it is reasonably practicable to do so, secure that a range of persons reflective of the community in Northern Ireland is available for consideration by the Commission whenever it is required to select a person to be appointed, or recommended for appointment, to a listed judicial office".
Clearly in the early stages of the commission's life it will be less easy to satisfy the,
- "as far as reasonably practicable",
Amendment No. 29 seeks to emphasise that the programme undertaken by the commission should be open-ended, a continuing programme; it should not have a life of only two, three, four or even five years. If I am right in assuming that gender, age and ethnic origin are the key ingredients of "reflective", then clearly we shall need an open-ended programme.
I can deal with Amendment No. 29 briefly. It concerns the importance of laying these matters before your Lordships and another House every year for an appropriate debate. I beg to move.
Lord Filkin: The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is absolutely correct that gender, ethnicity and age are extremely important. They do not necessarily all have exactly the same importance. If one is looking at the variance between what we think we have at present—we do not really know—and what the society is, the differential is greater on some than others. The gender issue is the clearest example. At one level, as far as we understand and it is perhaps easiest to spot, there are no ethnic minority members of the judiciary in Northern Ireland. On the other hand the proportion of the population from ethnic minority backgrounds in Northern Ireland is also very low. Hence my two points about the gap.
For reasons of experience there will always be a limit as to how far one can go with age. Nevertheless, it seems to us that that is an important criterion, as it seemed to this Chamber when it passed the 2002 Act. It is important to keep track of it, partly because it touches on a later point of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland; that if one is not bringing in appropriate people at the beginning of the process, one will not have appropriate people to choose from later on.
In terms of a continuing programme, while I do not accept the noble Lord's amendment, I certainly agree with his argument. He is fundamentally right that this sort of process of change does not happen overnight. My experience is that it is a 10, 15 or even 20-year programme of change. That is another reason for starting now rather than putting it off. It is not something that one can fix within two or three years. Therefore I totally agree with the noble Lord that the process should be continuing.
I am being slightly churlish about not accepting the amendment but give the commitment that the process must be continuing. The statutory duty exists and it will continue until such time, if ever, Parliament rescinds it. So the nature of the legislation ensures that it is continuing. I was a little churlish about not accepting the amendment because we have not really started yet and there is not much of a programme at present to continue. We perhaps therefore need a different term from "continuing".
1.15 p.m.
Lord Kingsland: I am grateful for the Minister's explanation, which is extremely helpful. The crucial issue that I wanted to emphasise is that we cannot have the third paragraph without the second paragraph. If we want to produce a range of candidates for a specific job, which is what appears from the text of the Bill, we have to have a programme of the sort suggested and it has to be long-term, otherwise we will never reach subparagraph (3). That is the crucial point that I wanted to emphasise.
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